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Thameslink Rolling Stock Contract Finally Done!!

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LNW-GW Joint

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Dan Milmo (who called the initial West Coast franchise award to FirstGroup) is reporting in the Guardian that commercial close with Siemens might be posted on Friday 21st. http://www.guardian.co.uk/business/2012/dec/16/fresh-blow-bombardier-thameslink-contract?INTCMP=SRCH
It will then move to the financial phase.

Dan Milmo in The Guardian said:
But it is understood the commercial terms of the contract – such as the cost of the trains, depots and carriage maintenance, alongside terms and conditions – have been agreed and the parties are committing them to paper, in a process that could be completed by Friday. Once that is finalised, the commercial terms will be scrutinised by a group of banks which will decide whether to fund the contract, in the final hurdle to be jumped before construction begins
 
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ert47

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I wonder if this is the end of the world that the Mayans were predicting? :P
 

HSTEd

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I don't want to sound cynical but haven't we heard this before now?
 

Class377/5

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I don't want to sound cynical but haven't we heard this before now?

No, all we've heard publicly before is progress is being made but slower than expected. This is possible good news.
 

Pumbaa

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I've just been told by a little bird the deal is indeed done and signed. Announcement tomorrow.

About bloody time. Next fiasco please.
 

jon0844

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Thank goodness. Thameslink 4000 now on target.

How ironic that tomorrow is the end of the world!
 

D365

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Thank goodness. Thameslink 4000 now on target.

How ironic that tomorrow is the end of the world!

Oh please, I disabled my Facebook for the number of statuses I was seeing about this... Perhaps the ECML problems earlier this week were a forewarning ;S Can't wait for the future
 

Pumbaa

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Don't get too excited - this is just financial close. But it should be plain sailing from now. Ish
 

Class377/5

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Commercial Close. Now it's the banks turn to have fun.

And interim fleet as well?

http://www.railnews.co.uk/news/2012/12/21-key-elements-agreed-on-thameslink.html

'Key elements' agreed on Siemens Thameslink order

Thameslink deal 'moves closer to completion'

COMMERCIAL*agreement has been reached on 'key elements' of the controversial Thameslink rolling stock deal. Transport minister Simon Burns told MPs that the Siemens-led bidding consortium has now moved on to detailed negotiations with sources of private sector finance.

It has also been confirmed that train orders placed nominally by Southern are really being negotiated on behalf of the DfT to provide trains for newly-electrified lines, with a further 40 vehicles newly added to the proposed total.

Mr Burns*said: "It has—quite rightly— taken some time to get the details right. Siemens and its partners in Cross London Trains have been working very closely with the Department for Transport to reach commercial agreement on the Thameslink rolling stock project.

"I am pleased to say that there has been substantive progress in recent weeks and the Department has now reached commercial agreement on the key elements of the deal with the Cross London Trains consortium. Last night the Cross London Trains consortium published its information memorandum to potential funders."

The Thameslink order, thought to be worth up to £1.4 billion, has been the subject of intense debate because Siemens was named as preferred bidder in June 2011 in preference to Derby-based Bombardier.

Everything now appears to depend on 'financial close' – when Siemens obtains the funding it needs from private sector banks at an acceptable price. It is thought that the unstable financial conditions in the Eurozone have been a factor in delaying the project.

Because the Thameslink procurement project is running several years late, the DfT has now admitted that a potential order for more vehicles, being led by Southern, is really a bid to close the rolling stock gap.

The DfT said: 'As a result of government support, Southern Railway has now procured 40 new carriages from Bombardier based in Derby. In addition to the 40 carriages, the government is also supporting Southern’s tendering process for 116 new electric carriages with the option for a further 140.'

Transport secretary Patrick McLoughlin added: "Our support for Southern will not only boost capacity but help secure British jobs. The deal for the 40 new carriages, helped along by my department, demonstrates the government’s ongoing commitment to invest in Britain’s railways.

"My officials are working with Southern to accelerate their procurement process for up to 256 carriages because our ambitious electrification plans requires additional rolling stock on the network.

"In December 2011 Southern Railway, with government support, announced its plans to buy 130 carriages from Bombardier to run on services in south London, Surrey, Sussex and Kent. Southern expects these will be in service by December 2013. As part of this deal Southern had the option to buy the additional 40 carriages at a later stage."

It has also been admitted that the new orders, although technically being led by Southern, are really intended to close the gap which is now inevitable before new vehicles are available for Thameslink.

The DfT said: "If Southern progresses with the procurement, these 116 new vehicles, and potentially 140 more, could initially be used on the Thameslink routes. Once the expected new Thameslink trains are operational these carriages will be moved to the newly electrified routes, which could include the Midland Main Line to Corby and North Transpennine Routes."

Southern itself is intended to disappear in 2015, when the present franchise is merged with Thameslink. In a series of questions and answers published today, Southern included this clarification:

Q. The original announcement said that the option was for 100 carriages. Why has this changed to 140?
A. This is what the Department for Transport has asked us to do.
 

IanXC

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Thameslink Rolling Stock Contract Nearly Done

Why does the film "The Money Pit" come to mind?

The Money Pit said:
Anna: Well, the turkey's done.
Walter: So's the kitchen. Actually, it's a little overdone for my tastes. Let's not go there again.
 

hwl

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Class377/5

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New Great Western franchise to order it own fleet of EMUs then?

The text under picture with the article (a 319) talks about them being cascaded

319s are off to NW but nothing has been said about GW.

Rumours were that GW needed 110mph units tho.
 

jon0844

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Could 319s when given the massive rebuild be made to run at 110mph?

Anyway - it's good to see some movement with Thameslink and I hope that the inevitable teething troubles are nothing compared to Bombardier's.
 

Class377/5

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Could 319s when given the massive rebuild be made to run at 110mph?

Anyway - it's good to see some movement with Thameslink and I hope that the inevitable teething troubles are nothing compared to Bombardier's.

With a year of testing I don't think they will be so bad once they roll into service. Fact that Siemens can bring them over already run in will help.

As for the 319s I'm not sure.
 

jon0844

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I do get the feeling that Siemens will probably have minor problems in comparison and be able to fix them on site.
 

87015

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I do get the feeling that Siemens will probably have minor problems in comparison and be able to fix them on site.
Lets hope so - but their record card has as many large stains on it as everybody elses! The SNCB 18s are going back to Germany for yet more rectification in the New Year, should have all entered service in 2009-2010...
 

317666

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Anyway - it's good to see some movement with Thameslink and I hope that the inevitable teething troubles are nothing compared to Bombardier's.

Siemens have Prüf- und Validationscenter Wegberg-Wildenrath on their side, a test track where their stock has to do 1000 fault-free miles (at least I think it was when the 444s were being built, remember seeing it on TV) before being accepted by the TOC. With a name like that it has to be good!
 

swt_passenger

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"It has also been admitted that the new orders, although technically being led by Southern, are really intended to close the gap which is now inevitable before new vehicles are available for Thameslink."

I thought that was always pretty obvious from the wording originally used in SN's announcements anyway - stuff like 'for use on the wider network'??
 

jon0844

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I presume this means the 377/5s can stay with FCC until the new trains are ready, as well as the 319s obviously?

Or will Southern get the 377/5s back (not that they ever had them) and the new trains will go to the TL route?
 

sprinterguy

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I presume this means the 377/5s can stay with FCC until the new trains are ready, as well as the 319s obviously?

Or will Southern get the 377/5s back (not that they ever had them) and the new trains will go to the TL route?
The class 377/6 units have been ordered to make up for the deficit that has been caused by Southern not having their class 377/5s returned (allowing the 377/5s to stay on Thameslink), to allow the class 456 units to be cascaded to South West Trains.

The prospective additional order for 116 new carriages with an option for 140 more look as if they are to be deployed on Thameslink to allow the class 319s to be relocated to the North West, and possibly the GWML. Note that the Southern franchise will be merged into the Thameslink/Great Northern franchise in July 2015, so “FCC” and “Southern” will become a single entity at that time.
 

jon0844

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Ah, I see. That should be fun for the core then - as we get a new fleet of (Bombardier) trains to go wrong and need loads of work to work properly on a temporary basis before we get to see if the Siemens trains also have their own problems.

Joy!
 

LNW-GW Joint

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Confirmation now on the DfT website: https://www.gov.uk/government/news/department-for-transports-boost-to-train-builders

Are we to read that this is a shoe-in for Bombardier, or is it to be a proper competition?
What do Southern know about anything other than Electrostars?
Does this determine the future rolling stock for TP and MML, as they are mentioned in the text (GW is not)?
Seems to raise more questions than it answers.
Maybe it's a GoVia procurement under the skin, which would then embrace Siemens and Hitachi experience as well as Bombardier.
Then there's Alstom...
 
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starrymarkb

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Siemens have Prüf- und Validationscenter Wegberg-Wildenrath on their side, a test track where their stock has to do 1000 fault-free miles (at least I think it was when the 444s were being built, remember seeing it on TV) before being accepted by the TOC. With a name like that it has to be good!

Proof that German can produce enormous words which have a much shorter English equivalent - Test Centre..

Take the Beef Labelling law - Rindfleischetikettierungsüberwachungsaufgabenübertragungsgesetz
 

TEW

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Confirmation now on the DfT website: https://www.gov.uk/government/news/department-for-transports-boost-to-train-builders

Are we to read that this is a shoe-in for Bombardier, or is it to be a proper competition?

It's a proper procurement process but presumably the DfT are using Southern to procure the trains even though they aren't for their network because they can specify compatibility with their current fleet which in effect makes Bombardier a shoe in.
 

F Great Eastern

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Is there more to this than meets the eye? For example what happens if the Thameslink Order breaks down, these vehicles could then be used there....

Not convinced that this may well be a way to allow Bombardier in by the back door.
 
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