Do I need to give up my seat?

[Seacook]

So Virgin XC enforce an "invisible reservations" policy? Can such a policy supersede Bylaw 19?

Er...Virgin XC?

 

[elagueesti]

I was on a FGW service to Cardiff the other day that got rather full.

What annoyed me most was that I heard people who did have reservations muttering and saying things like "Oh it doesn't matter, you don't HAVE to sit in your reserved sit, let's sit somewhere else". Which is all well and good, however a lot of people travelling with anytime tickets will avoid all the reserved seats because, after all, no British person wants to have to be asked to move from one by it's legitimate occupier. So you have the ludcrious situation of reserved seats remaining empty and unreserved ones being clogged up by people who should be sitting somewhere else.

Am I alone in thinking that if you do purchase a reservation, you should be made to sit there? Would solve a lot of problems on crowded trains as everyone would know whether a seat was safe to occupy or not.

I do recall one interesting occasion when I was helping a female friend onto a very crowded GNER (as it then was) service. I believe the previous train had been cancelled. My friend had a reservation (and reservation tickets had been put on the seats) and a rather bumptious article and his old bag of a wife were occupying her seat (and the unreserved seat next to it). He did have a reservation for that seat, but on the train that had been cancelled and not this service.

Suffice to say the rather overworked GNER staff member asked him to move and he again refused so she told him that if he didn't she would call the British Transport Police (of which the station was crowded, it being the day of some ghastly football match). I believe he had to stand all the way to Doncaster. Whether or not she would have called the BTP I shall never know, but it's amazing how quickly he jumped up at the merest mention of the Police.

 

[34D]

Tell people who book an intercity journey for a pound or whatever stand in order that those of us with c. £100 tickets can be seated - its the only way.

 

[ralphchadkirk]

Where is it written, in the NRCOC or any official documentation that no reservation markers on seats means the reservation is invalid?

 

[AlexS]

The seat reservation tags/screens provide confirmation of the reservation. If they aren't provided and you're unable to find a seat you can make a claim against the TOC through customer relations.

 

[transportphoto]

Am I alone in thinking that if you do purchase a reservation, you should be made to sit there? Would solve a lot of problems on crowded trains as everyone would know whether a seat was safe to occupy or not.

You'll be amazed how many reservation tickets suddenly go missing!

TP

 

[snail]

Where is it written, in the NRCOC or any official documentation that no reservation markers on seats means the reservation is invalid?

Go back a page and read Byelaw 19.

 

[ainsworth74]

Tell people who book an intercity journey for a pound or whatever stand in order that those of us with c. £100 tickets can be seated - its the only way.

Why? In what way is someone whose paid more for their journey (not a seat) more deserving of a seat than someone whose paid less?

 

[Rich McLean]

Speaking about Seat Reservations on trains. I have a seat booked on friday on the 11:33 RDG to PLY (ex 1105 PAD), and since its the last friday before christmas, I have a feeling this one is going to be wedged when I board at RDG.

I have used West of England services before from Reading, complete with reservations, and got told by the snobby guy in my seat that he got there first, and he is not moving. TM wasn't prepared to turf him out, so ended up in the vestible until Exeter.

Now I know this is going to happen again on Friday, how many guards are prepared to turf passengers out of reserved seats if they refuse?

 

[district]

I think it's fair enough to go for an empty reserved seat if it's still vacant when the train departs, and the train is not so busy that they might still turn up.]

Was in this situation recently with other forum members. Reserved from Birmingham International, and well after leaving New Street seats still vacant. Customers shouted and demanded we vacated. Then the retail services manager told us she would move us ''by force'' and called the train manager. Train manager was less than bothered.

Er...Virgin XC?

I have no idea why people feel the need to mention Virgin or Arriva as a prefix to CrossCountry. It's like me saying CocaCola Fanta, or Whitbread Costa Coffee.

 

[pjnathanail]

I have no idea why people feel the need to mention Virgin or Arriva as a prefix to CrossCountry. It's like me saying CocaCola Fanta, or Whitbread Costa Coffee.

I think it was more the fact that Virgin XC haven't been around for quite some time now! Also, it helps (in some contexts) distinguish between CrossCountry the TOC and a journey crosscountry (Not via London).

 

[trainophile]

The seat reservation tags/screens provide confirmation of the reservation. If they aren't provided and you're unable to find a seat you can make a claim against the TOC through customer relations.

Make a claim for what?

 

[bb21]

Was in this situation recently with other forum members. Reserved from Birmingham International, and well after leaving New Street seats still vacant. Customers shouted and demanded we vacated. Then the retail services manager told us she would move us ''by force'' and called the train manager. Train manager was less than bothered.

I am awaiting a response from XC on this matter as a result.

 

[Seacook]

Was in this situation recently with other forum members. Reserved from Birmingham International, and well after leaving New Street seats still vacant. Customers shouted and demanded we vacated. Then the retail services manager told us she would move us ''by force'' and called the train manager.

I read this three times and I am still not sure I have it right.

Can you provide some clarification here?

Does 'reserved from Birmingham International' mean you reserved it or someone else?

In which direction were you traveling?

Where did you join the train and occupy the seats?

Are the protesting customers the ones with the reservations?

 

[yorkie]

Where is it written, in the NRCOC or any official documentation that no reservation markers on seats means the reservation is invalid?

I refer you to the Byelaws, as previously posted.

Also I could quite easily turn your question around and ask where it says invisible reservations are 'valid'?

I'm sure reb0118 is correct on this matter, after all he is a guard who will have experience of this!

 

[bb21]

Since I was on the same train, I will answer these questions.

Does 'reserved from Birmingham International' mean you reserved it or someone else?

Someone else.

In which direction were you traveling?

Northbound.

Where did you join the train and occupy the seats?

Birmingham New Street.

Are the protesting customers the ones with the reservations?

Yes.

 

[maniacmartin]

That case is a bit of a grey area bb21. I would have given up the seats in that instance.

 

[bb21]

That case is a bit of a grey area bb21. I would have given up the seats in that instance.

Not if we were shouted at.

 

[AndyLandy]

That case is a bit of a grey area bb21. I would have given up the seats in that instance.

Don't you forfeit a seat reservation if you haven't occupied it? Clearly there needs to be a bit of leeway if someone's making their way along the train, but if you're at the next station along the line and nobody's occupied the seat, I thought that meant it was available?

 

[yorkie]

Don't you forfeit a seat reservation if you haven't occupied it? Clearly there needs to be a bit of leeway if someone's making their way along the train, but if you're at the next station along the line and nobody's occupied the seat, I thought that meant it was available?

That's what I thought (and feel should be the case) however it's not documented. I once occupied a seat that was reserved from Darlington on departure from York, thinking I was safe. A woman claimed it on departure from Grantham!

 

[martinsh]

That's what I thought (and feel should be the case) however it's not documented. I once occupied a seat that was reserved from Darlington on departure from York, thinking I was safe. A woman claimed it on departure from Grantham!

Must be an East Coast thing. I recently got turfed out of a seat reserved Newcastle - London halfway between Darlington and York !

 

[Greenback]

Don't you forfeit a seat reservation if you haven't occupied it? Clearly there needs to be a bit of leeway if someone's making their way along the train, but if you're at the next station along the line and nobody's occupied the seat, I thought that meant it was available?

My view on this differs from a few others. Suppose I have reserfed a seat, the seat is labelled and I get on at my origin station. The train is busy, but I need to visit the facilities, or I go off to fidn the conductor, or visit the buffet, and someone gets on at the next station. They see the label, but I'm not sitting there, so they decide to claim it. A few minutes later I return, but have I lost my seat now or not?

The flip side of this is that if no one is sitting in a reserved seat because they have vacated it temproarily, that doe smean it is available for anyone else to use, but only during the period of absence.

I just don't think the issue is as clear cut as it might appear.

As to the OP, they were clearly in the right and I would not have moved either. Even on XC!

 

[fairysdad]

My view on this differs from a few others. Suppose I have reserfed a seat, the seat is labelled and I get on at my origin station. The train is busy, but I need to visit the facilities, or I go off to fidn the conductor, or visit the buffet, and someone gets on at the next station. They see the label, but I'm not sitting there, so they decide to claim it. A few minutes later I return, but have I lost my seat now or not?

My method is to not leave the seat except just after a station call, waiting a couple of minutes after departure. I'm also generally okay with leaving my bags in my seat - there's never anything of real value in there, and being in a closed space, if something is stolen, it must still be on the train!

However, as I tend to get long-distance trains with limited stops, this does make it somewhat easier...

 

[Greenback]

My method is to not leave the seat except just after a station call, waiting a couple of minutes after departure. I'm also generally okay with leaving my bags in my seat - there's never anything of real value in there, and being in a closed space, if something is stolen, it must still be on the train!

However, as I tend to get long-distance trains with limited stops, this does make it somewhat easier...

I know what you mean. I try not to leave my seat when the next station stop is approaching, but sometimes it's unavoidable, for instance there may have been a long queue for buffet.

I don't always travel with luggage either, though having a bag does make it easier to demonstrate that someone is sitting in the seat!

 

[Butts]

This whole thread seems surreal to me, I always travel off-peak on East Coast First Class and am disappointed not to have a carriage to myself let alone a seat

On a more serious note (particularly on long distance journeys) it seems insane that you are not guaranteed a seat but merely to be conveyed between two points.

 

[Greenback]

On a more serious note (particularly on long distance journeys) it seems insane that you are not guaranteed a seat but merely to be conveyed between two points.

The only way to guarantee a seat would be to mahe advance reservations for all passengers compulsory. By bye walk up travel, commuting on a season ticket and so on!

 

[Butts]

The only way to guarantee a seat would be to mahe advance reservations for all passengers compulsory. By bye walk up travel, commuting on a season ticket and so on!

Yes I appreciate it's not practical, but when it's often cheaper and far quicker to FLY on long haul UK Domestic with a seat guaranteed it's a wonder anyone takes the train

 

[sheff1]

Am I alone in thinking that if you do purchase a reservation, you should be made to sit there?

How could someone be made to sit there ? Unless it was an Advance ticket there is no way of knowing whether they held a reservation or not (unless they advertised the fact themselves).
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

I once occupied a seat that was reserved from Darlington on departure from York, thinking I was safe. A woman claimed it on departure from Grantham!

I once did that, in the 'good old days' when the restaurant was open to allcomers

 

[bb21]

My view on this differs from a few others. Suppose I have reserfed a seat, the seat is labelled and I get on at my origin station. The train is busy, but I need to visit the facilities, or I go off to fidn the conductor, or visit the buffet, and someone gets on at the next station. They see the label, but I'm not sitting there, so they decide to claim it. A few minutes later I return, but have I lost my seat now or not?

The difficulty is where do you draw the line. Suppose a seat is reserved between Birmingham International and Manchester Piccadilly, is it lost if not reclaimed by Birmingham New Street? Or Wolves? Or Stafford? Or Stockport?

The flip side of this is that if no one is sitting in a reserved seat because they have vacated it temproarily, that doe smean it is available for anyone else to use, but only during the period of absence.

If a seat is already claimed, I do not see it unreasonable for the occupant to regain it after a period of temporary absence.

 

[Robsignals]

Perhaps 30 years ago I remember reading that if a seat isn't claimed within 10 minutes of departing the 'from' station the reservation was voided, of course reservations had to be paid for then except possibly on 'Reservation compulsory' trains.

One idea would be for IC trains to be advertised as "All seats reserved" with all the unreserved seat labels printed out and given to passengers who haven't made a reservation as they go through the barrier, the conductor can give out any left over at later stations. Passengers with one of these can occupy the stated seat with confidence, those without would know they had little chance of getting a seat and might have to vacate any they did find, all hopelessly impractical of course.

Once witnessed a situation where 'A' asked if an empty seat was free and was told 'yes' by 'B' but 'B' must have thought the question was 'is that seat taken' and when 'A' sat in it looked annoyed but said nothing leading to much confusion when the rightful occupant returned!