Scotrail - RMT Strike Ballot

[snail]

No, you said most, but didn't specify which were and which weren't illegal.

I think we are at cross purposes here. I was responding to the assertion that unions are there to protect their members' interests, which I don't deny.

As for what is and isn't illegal: Apparently without unions, companies would be "forcing staff to work 7 days a week on minimum wage with no breaks, 12 hour days".

The EU Working Time Directive, incorporated into the Working Time Regulations, specifies rest of at least 11 hours in any 24 hours; restricts excessive night work; and makes a default right to work no more than 48 hours per week. A worker is also entitled to an uninterrupted break of 20 minutes when daily working time is more than six hours.

This may be easier to enforce with the help of a union, but the law applies to union and non-union employees without distinction.

IIRC, the UK negotiated an exemption to the absolute 48 hour maximum set out in the Directive because unions didn't want their workers to be denied the ability to work longer hours through overtime.

 

[313103]

This is exactly the culture of entitlement I'm talking about. The idea that a company should be prevented from dismissing a member of staff for poor performance or attendance is laughable.

I don't think i work in a place which is a culture of entitlement, but that is your opinion of how it is so i must believe you:roll:

It is quite obvious that you have misinterpreted what OL Leigh has said for your own gains. What happens is that companies can and do engineer poor performance (the analogy of not being able to sell kitkats is a prime example), if the company say sell a box a shift and the member of staff doesnt he/she is then up for poor performance is that a justifiable sacking? No i thought not either. i have also known staff to be sacked from work whilst they are recovering from a work related injury. Is that a justifiable sacking? No once again i thought not either.

To what degree should it be allowed to continue? When the employee only comes in one day a year? Should ticket examiners be allowed to sit in the back cab with their feet up for thirty five hours a week? How many years can someone just sit at home on the sick before the company is allowed to get rid

Again sweeping generalisation, tell me how many people do you know or have known who only works one day a year. How many Ticket examiners do you know that sit for 35 hours in the back cab of a train! None i suppose but lets advertise it so that mud sticks. Have you known anyone or lets say have you heard of a railway employee being of sick for many years. I have never heard of one yet and yet i have ben in the industry for 33 years, but lets not let facts get in the way.

Believe it or not, but companies actually DON'T actively scheme ways of getting rid of staff. TOCs don't have the option to shut booking offices. They can't just device to slash services. You may not have seventeen men and a chargeman sitting in the bothy ready to clean a single platform anymore, but you're not going to see sweeping job cuts again, because employee numbers are at reasonable numbers. It costs a company more money to recruit new employees than it does to keep them. It would be bad business to do this for no reason. So you can be assured that when a company does decide to dismiss someone, it's been with consideration.

This last sentence requires No comment, it is farcecle if that is what you beilive, so i will leave it there.

 

[Sadsmileyface]

I don't think i work in a place which is a culture of entitlement, but that is your opinion of how it is so i must believe you:roll:

It is quite obvious that you have misinterpreted what OL Leigh has said for your own gains. What happens is that companies can and do engineer poor performance (the analogy of not being able to sell kitkats is a prime example), if the company say sell a box a shift and the member of staff doesnt he/she is then up for poor performance is that a justifiable sacking? No i thought not either. i have also known staff to be sacked from work whilst they are recovering from a work related injury. Is that a justifiable sacking? No once again i thought not either.



Again sweeping generalisation, tell me how many people do you know or have known who only works one day a year. How many Ticket examiners do you know that sit for 35 hours in the back cab of a train! None i suppose but lets advertise it so that mud sticks. Have you known anyone or lets say have you heard of a railway employee being of sick for many years. I have never heard of one yet and yet i have ben in the industry for 33 years, but lets not let facts get in the way.



This last sentence requires No comment, it is farcecle if that is what you beilive, so i will leave it there.

When we talk about poor performance in the context of the railway, we're not talking about kit kats or sales targets, so it's a terrible analogy.

And as I said before, there's a difference between reading and understanding. This has been addressed in the post above.

 

[MacRae13]

companies actually DON'T actively scheme ways of getting rid of staff

People don't actually believe this do they? Obviously you do, but I hope you're an isolated case.

with their ever dwindling membership numbers.

You might want to avail yourself of a bit more knowledge before any more ill informed statements.

 

[AlexS]

People don't actually believe this do they? Obviously you do, but I hope you're an isolated case.



You might want to avail yourself of a bit more knowledge before any more ill informed statements.

That's odd, as I've known several managers from various organisations admit to 'managing someone towards the door'!

 

[Sadsmileyface]

And did you ever stop to ask why that was happening, or do you just think it happens because management... is actively looking to be as unsuccessful as possible?

 

[MacRae13]

That's odd, as I've known several managers from various organisations admit to 'managing someone towards the door'!

Yes, it's not unusual at all.

And did you ever stop to ask why that was happening, or do you just think it happens because management... is actively looking to be as unsuccessful as possible?

Success/performance often come a poor second to reductions in overheads to keep senior management and shareholders happy in the short term.

 

[bnm]

You might want to avail yourself of a bit more knowledge before any more ill informed statements.

I'll do that then on behalf of the poster you were replying to.

Union membership has halved since 1980, and has dropped by over 500,000 since 2008.

And whilst the RMT still crow about how they've increased membership since Brother Bob became leader, they have lost around 3000 members in each of the past two years.

 

[aylesbury]

Now their comrades in London LU are striking on Boxing day it must be contagious I wonder where the next actions will be happenning?

 

[bnm]

Another thing I find interesting is that it's always the RMT who's members are having problems with TOC management. If this management really is that bad, riding roughshod over employment law, conspiring to dismiss staff without due process, then why are we not hearing of similar cases from TSSA and ASLEF?

Perhaps it may be because the membership and hierarchy at TSSA and ASLEF are less confrontational and don't engender the 'us and them' attitude and actually work through differences constructively. You certainly don't see the same level of hyperbole coming out of TSSA and ASLEF.

I'm not anti-union. I'm anti-RMT. In union terms it, and it's leader, are dinosaurs.

 

[AndyHA]

Have we had ( the usual ) " Snouts in the Trough " comment from Crow yet ?

 

[ANorthernGuard]

Another thing I find interesting is that it's always the RMT who's members are having problems with TOC management. If this management really is that bad, riding roughshod over employment law, conspiring to dismiss staff without due process, then why are we not hearing of similar cases from TSSA and ASLEF?

Perhaps it may be because the membership and hierarchy at TSSA and ASLEF are less confrontational and don't engender the 'us and them' attitude and actually work through differences constructively. You certainly don't see the same level of hyperbole coming out of TSSA and ASLEF.

I'm not anti-union. I'm anti-RMT. In union terms it, and it's leader, are dinosaurs.

better a dinosaur than a corporate yes man any day!

 

[MacRae13]

I'll do that then on behalf of the poster you were replying to.

Union membership has halved since 1980, and has dropped by over 500,000 since 2008.

If you feel the need, please stay on topic - Sad is clearly referring to the RMT. Don't try to blur the issue.

And whilst the RMT still crow about how they've increased membership since Brother Bob became leader, they have lost around 3000 members in each of the past two years.

So membership isn't up, over a more significant period than two years?

Any drop is not surprising, as I witness people wanting to save their weekly subscription due to the current financial climate - however misguided that may be.

However the fact remains - membership of the RMT (the union the poster was talking about) is considerably up, and in no way 'dwindling' over a significant period.

 

[ANorthernGuard]

I'll do that then on behalf of the poster you were replying to.

Union membership has halved since 1980, and has dropped by over 500,000 since 2008.

And whilst the RMT still crow about how they've increased membership since Brother Bob became leader, they have lost around 3000 members in each of the past two years.

oops and thats just rail workers!.... NOT!


rail, MARITIME and TRANSPORT

RMT is a progressive, democratic and highly professional trade union, a fast growing union with more than 80,000 members from almost every sector of the transport industry - from the mainline and underground railways, shipping and offshore, buses and road freight

so where do you think they lost the membership or is just RAIL too convenient

membership goes up and down ASLE&F are the ones struggling at present as some of their membership is now with the RMT.

 

[313103]

I see that ignorance is the best policy being engineered by some of the forum members on here, i will do likewise and not rise to the bait by putting counter ignorant comments myself.

 

[ANorthernGuard]

Have we had ( the usual ) " Snouts in the Trough " comment from Crow yet ?

well he is right most of the time! (not all, but most)
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

That's odd, as I've known several managers from various organisations admit to 'managing someone towards the door'!

and a very good friend of mine (away from transport) had that attempted on him, luckily he had good union back up and it back fired on the person attempting to get rid of him.

 

[AlexS]

And did you ever stop to ask why that was happening, or do you just think it happens because management... is actively looking to be as unsuccessful as possible?

Sometimes it was because the employee was crap. Sometimes it was because they did awkward things or the manager didn't like them. I'm pleased to say I've not seen it from my current employer, at least locally to me and my team - I don't know much about how things are dealt with in other teams etc.

The point is though that you shouldn't need to 'manage someone towards the door'. Their own conduct should do that for them. If someone is blatantly a liability in my experience it's unusual for the union to have much to do with them.

 

[the sniper]

Another thing I find interesting is that it's always the RMT who's members are having problems with TOC management. If this management really is that bad, riding roughshod over employment law, conspiring to dismiss staff without due process, then why are we not hearing of similar cases from TSSA and ASLEF?

Outside of the drivers grade, I imagine the RMT represent the largest number of staff on the railway. As they represent the most people, surely it's natural that they'd have to assist more people than the other Unions? I suppose the grades that each Union covers too could have something to do with it, as some grades are more open to trouble than others.

You mention not hearing from ASLEF more. Well, I don't want to be controversial, but in my experience TOCs seem to go out of their way not to upset the drivers/ASLEF. They're the one's who they can't afford to upset. Where booking office staff, ATEs/Is, RPIs and (to a lesser extent) Guards can be pushed around, if you push the drivers, they'll knock your job over.

 

[Captain Chaos]

I had someone try and 'manage me to the door' in my previous job. Backfired spectacularly on him though and he ended up resigning. He was very close to succeeding too. The things he used to pick me out on and send me home for still make my blood boil even now. I didn't have any union to help me then. I can't help but feel if I did it wouldn't have happened.

If people can get away with things then they will, especially those who have power over others. Thankfully the line manager I have in my depot is actually quite good and I can't say I have ever had a problem with him. He has always been fair. But sadly for every good one I can always think of a bad one.

 

[fraser158]

Perhaps OT, but RMT signallers at Stirling North, Stirling Middle and Dunblane are also striking on Christmas Eve.

http://www.rmt.org.uk/Templates/Internal.asp?NodeID=167033

 

[michael769]

I understand Scotrail have issued a new formal offer for consideration by the RMT. A decicion is expected tomorrow morning.

if the offer is unsuccessful an emergency timetable will be released tomorrow.

 

[Sadsmileyface]

Perhaps OT, but RMT signallers at Stirling North, Stirling Middle and Dunblane are also striking on Christmas Eve.

http://www.rmt.org.uk/Templates/Internal.asp?NodeID=167033

I'm sure in that this, in addition to the XC strike action at the exact same time for completely seperate reasons, is just a coincidence and not a cynical, deliberate, coordinated attempt at disrupting as much of the rail network as possible to consolidate and reassert it's authority even with relatively few members backing it.

 

[313103]

I'm sure in that this, in addition to the XC strike action at the exact same time for completely seperate reasons, is just a coincidence and not a cynical, deliberate, coordinated attempt at disrupting as much of the rail network as possible to consolidate and reassert it's authority even with relatively few members backing it.

I refer to my answer (225) which i gave a few hours ago.

 

[MacRae13]

even with relatively few members backing it.

What ARE you talking about?

I know you must realise the protocol involved, so I can only assume you're trolling.

 

[Ferret]

The XC strike isn't happening from what I've been told! Negotiation wins the day.....

 

[fraser158]

ScotRail and RMT have had further talks.

http://www.scotrail.co.uk/content/statement-constructive-dialogue-rmt-union

 

[michael769]

I am pleased to see that both sides seem to have put a stop to the confrontational and inflammatory languge we saw over the weekend, so hopefully things are being dealt with in a more constructive manner.

 

[Greenback]

It is often the case that a strike ballot, and a yes vote, will ensure that negotiaitions continue/restart and brings a new focus to seeking an acceptable resolution that might otherwise have not been there.

That doesn't stop quite a few people becoming outraged about a strike that may never happen; as I have said on many occasions previously, it's all part of the game, and more often than not the strike is ultimately called off.

 

[Ferret]

Yes Greenback! It'd sometimes be helpful if things weren't leaked to the sodding press so that sensible negotiations can occur without a backdrop of drivel, the kind of drivel I've read in this thread to be perfectly honest...

 

[transmanche]

It is often the case that a strike ballot, and a yes vote, will ensure that negotiaitions continue/restart and brings a new focus to seeking an acceptable resolution that might otherwise have not been there.

That doesn't stop quite a few people becoming outraged about a strike that may never happen; as I have said on many occasions previously, it's all part of the game, and more often than not the strike is ultimately called off.

However these tactics seem to be fairly prevalent in the railway industry - more so than in many other industries. Long term this isn't healthy - for employer or employee.