Ordsall Chord

[Chris125]

Looking at that matter from the point of view of MOSI, how much inconvenience would be caused to them if the existing connection to the national rail network was to be totally terminated ?

The mainline connection has barely been used over the years so no real inconvenience at all, the main impact on MOSI will be the truncation of the running line.

Chris

 

[Xenophon PCDGS]

The mainline connection has barely been used over the years so no real inconvenience at all, the main impact on MOSI will be the truncation of the running line.

Chris

I was rather thinking in terms of any museum standard gauge locomotive stock acquisitions and of any large items of carriage rolling stock that were being restored in these premises that may eventually need to go elsewhere when completed.

Have MOSI issued any statement regarding this proposed truncation of running line ?

 

[Chris125]

I was rather thinking in terms of any museum standard gauge locomotive stock acquisitions and of any large items of carriage rolling stock that were being restored in these premises that may eventually need to go elsewhere when completed.

I believe they use road transport for that kind of thing so it wouldn't make any difference. As for the running line i remember reading somewhere that discussions between the museum and NR are continuing, presumably over appropriate compensation.

Chris

 

[VideozVideoz]

I decided to have another look at NR's website regarding Ordsall Chord and have 2 questions:

1) This investment will help ease a rail bottleneck to the south of Piccadilly station.

How so? Are they planning to reduce the number of available slots between Piccadilly and Deansgate (and even Salford Crescent)?

2) Journey times between Leeds and Manchester could be reduced by about 10 minutes

How so? Is it quicker for trains to go over the Ordsall Chord then via Ashton-Under Lyne rather than via Ashburys?

 

[LNW-GW Joint]

I decided to have another look at NR's website regarding Ordsall Chord and have 2 questions:
1) This investment will help ease a rail bottleneck to the south of Piccadilly station.
How so? Are they planning to reduce the number of available slots between Piccadilly and Deansgate (and even Salford Crescent)?
2) Journey times between Leeds and Manchester could be reduced by about 10 minutes
How so? Is it quicker for trains to go over the Ordsall Chord then via Ashton-Under Lyne rather than via Ashburys?

I don't altogether buy the hype either, but the gist is:

1. Sending Yorkshire trains via Victoria and the Ordsall Chord means they arrive at Piccadilly from the west and don't cross the layout south of the station en route to the Airport, hence reducing congestion.

2. They also don't need to reverse in Piccadilly, hence saving the turnround time. It is a bit faster to Vic rather than Pic, and there are unspecified line speed increases planned over the Leeds-Manchester-Liverpool route (90mph over most of the Chat Moss route, for instance).

But there's a lot of uncertainty about future services, as all the franchises (and train fleets) will be renewed/devolved by the time the Chord opens.

 

[PR1Berske]

Into Pic, round to Vic, opens up a lot of opportunities, but as you say, there's many questions unanswered yet.

I can imagine in an "ideal world" situation more and more expansion of services through Manchester from far outside it (Cumbria to Lancashire, nip around Manchester and out into Yorkshire, for example), but as you say, there's a lot of time between now and then.

A single northern franchise could change everything we've second guessed about the network, as you rightly say.

 

[stockport1]

surely the best way to reduce traffic south of piccadilly would be to convert the altrincham line back to heavy rail?

1. removes the chester and n-wales trains from the stockport viaduct.
2. offers a north and south bound connection to WCML at northwich\middlewich.
3. improves the services to large towns such as knutsford,northwich and chester.
4. possible alternative route for freight to avoid oxford road\piccadilly corridor.

opportunities:
1. park and rides at lostock, hartford and rudheath(for business park) to relieve a heavily congested a556.

2. some of this line around trafford+sale used to be 4 track and dare i suggest that 4 tracking from manchester to altrincham may also be possible.

3. chance to reopen mcr central as a terminus to serve chester\lpool\nwales\south

downside/restrictions:
1. trams would need converting to street running from throstles nest to manchester for continued service to whythenshaw and east didsbury.

2. 2 tracks from trafford to oxford road . would require reuse of manchester central for full utilization

 

[Holly]

surely the best way to reduce traffic south of Piccadilly would be to convert the Altrincham line back to heavy rail?
...

Such a waste that a 25kV line was downgraded in the first place.

Electrification of the 3 miles from Northwich to Hartford Curve would allow moving (Northwich-Manchester) traffic away from Stockport also. Such a cheap project in the grand scheme of things, and not even on the horizon.

 

[Invincibles]

The lack of Altrincham to Manchester via Sale only sends one train over the Stockport viaduct in each direction?

All other trains from Wales come in via Crewe/Wlimslow or Warrington so I am not sure what benefit ripping up all of the metrolink would have.

If you really want to take trains off the Stockport viaduct, then rerouting Hope Valley expresses through New Mills would surely be more effective? (I do factor in the assumption some work would be needed to loop slow trains or whatever)

 

[YorkshireBear]

If you really want to take trains off the Stockport viaduct, then rerouting Hope Valley expresses through New Mills would surely be more effective? (I do factor in the assumption some work would be needed to loop slow trains or whatever)

I potentially see this happening once the TPE via Guide bridge stop and the 4TPE per hour that travel that route becomes one. Send two sheffield expresses (presuming an extra one is added) that way and leave one via stockport as people do travel Stockport, Sheffield fairly regularly as it is used for connections to cheshire.

 

[northwichcat]

The lack of Altrincham to Manchester via Sale only sends one train over the Stockport viaduct in each direction?

Should be two at peak times but since Virgin increased Manchester-London to 3tph there haven't been enough paths for that.

It would also allow freight from the West Midlands to Trafford Park to have been diverted via Northenden and Sale instead of blocking up paths through Stockport and Ardwick.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

Such a waste that a 25kV line was downgraded in the first place.

Electrification of the 3 miles from Northwich to Hartford Curve would allow moving (Northwich-Manchester) traffic away from Stockport also. Such a cheap project in the grand scheme of things, and not even on the horizon.

Except that it would require running more EMUs after Chat Moss electrification, in addition to the current DMU service, which would incur a lot more expense than 3 miles of electrification.

With Hale catching up Northwich in terms of patronage and patronage at Knutsford and heavy rail patronage at Altrincham booming, something that will just benefit Northwich (and stations on Chat Moss that are already set to get more services) will be very low priority.

 

[VideozVideoz]

If you really want to take trains off the Stockport viaduct, then rerouting Hope Valley expresses through New Mills would surely be more effective? (I do factor in the assumption some work would be needed to loop slow trains or whatever)

There are 2 points to make here. Re-routing the Hope Valley expresses through New Mills is slower than the current route via Hazel Grove chord. There is already a Government proposal for work to be carried out in the near future to have a loop for the slow trains including doubling up the track at Dore & Totley.

 

[Holly]

... With Hale catching up Northwich in terms of patronage and patronage at Knutsford and heavy rail patronage at Altrincham booming, something that will just benefit Northwich ... .

Chicken and egg. Northwich-Manchester service is as slower than it was when operated by steam trains.

 

[Xenophon PCDGS]

It would also allow freight from the West Midlands to Trafford Park to have been diverted via Northenden and Sale instead of blocking up paths through Stockport and Ardwick.

If you are looking at the freight/container traffic, what percentage of this uses Stockport viaduct and what percentage of this uses the Styal line?
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

The lack of Altrincham to Manchester via Sale only sends one train over the Stockport viaduct in each direction? All other trains from Wales come in via Crewe/Wlimslow or Warrington so I am not sure what benefit ripping up all of the Metrolink would have.

With regard to the oft-repeated longing for the return of the heavy rail services from Altrincham to Manchester, via Sale, this would have the following Manchester Metrolink service problems now and in the future:-

1).. What would happen to the newly-constructed large Manchester Metrolink depot that is near to the Lancashire County Cricket ground that was constructed to allow for the increase of tram units that are required to run all the new south Manchester lines to Parrs Wood and Manchester Airport?

2).. What would happen to the proposed Manchester Metrolink service to Parrs Wood, which will eventually enable a north-south line from Rochdale to Parrs Wood.

3).. What would happen to the new Manchester Metrolink line under construction to Manchester Airport that will bifurcate just past the stop at St Werburghs Road?

4)... What would be the total costs involved to reinstate all the line from Altrincham to Manchester back to acceptable heavy rail standards in respect all every item that will require attention.

5).. What would be the total costs involved to reinstate all the roadways in the South Manchester area after the removal of all the infrastructure connected with the new system expansion of the Manchester Metrolink system?

6).. How much would TfGM have to repay back to central Government, from the grant monies from central Government that were granted to enable to current extension to the Manchester Metrolink system?

 

[northwichcat]

Chicken and egg. Northwich-Manchester service is as slower than it was when operated by steam trains.

As is the case from Knutsford and Hale.

The best all round solution is to extend the Airport spur to the Mid-Cheshire line and to then extend one of the services that terminates at the Airport to Chester or North Wales via Northwich and another to Liverpool via Northwich and Runcorn.

Northwich then gets a faster Manchester service as well as new direct links to Manchester Airport and Liverpool. The benefits also extend to Knutsford, making them more viable.

Second best solution is tram-train usage between Northwich and Manchestre via Sale.

Either or both of the above could start to happen towards the end of the decade. Can't see Northwich-Manchester via Chat Moss services ever happening. Surely Winsford-Manchester would be higher priority with Winsford passengers wishing to travel to Manchester having to go via Crewe and only getting a 2 hourly service to Crewe at certain times of day.

 

[stockport1]

tbh i just hate metrolink. its crowded slow and expensive. It is absolutely not suited to altrincham -manchester. I can understand using abandoned rail routes for metrolink its better than leaving them unused ...however converting in use heavy rail to metrolink is short-termism at its very best.

Arguing that patrronage goes up after conversion is bogus. Investing in the existing line to start would have done that.

Its like the northwich line is being *rundown* so that after conversion is done and patronage goes up because of frequent trams...the calls of "see metrolink is great" again. The mid cheshire is heavily under used due to the crap service on it and thats down to the alty-mcr strech being missing limiting services to fit through stockport ,lack of electrification, run down stations and pacers.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

As is the case from Knutsford and Hale.

Either or both of the above could start to happen towards the end of the decade. Can't see Northwich-Manchester via Chat Moss services ever happening. Surely Winsford-Manchester would be higher priority with Winsford passengers wishing to travel to Manchester having to go via Crewe and only getting a 2 hourly service to Crewe at certain times of day.

the mid cheshire used to have the capability to serve winsford too at one time long long ago.

 

[Xenophon PCDGS]

Tbh I just hate Metrolink. It's crowded, slow and expensive. It is absolutely not suited to Altrincham-Manchester. I can understand using abandoned rail routes for Metrolink as it's better than leaving them unused ...however converting in use heavy rail to Metrolink is short-termism at its very best. Arguing that patronage goes up after conversion is bogus. Investing in the existing line to start would have done that.

I think that you have to look at the Altrincham to Manchester Metrolink line as half of the north-south cross-city route that also combines the former converted heavy rail route from Bury to Manchester, to see this as a major Greater Manchester area transportation route.

There will be soon be another former heavy rail route from Rochdale-Oldham-Manchester that will also be fully converted to Manchester Metrolink operation and will provide another north-south cross-city route to Parrs Wood in East Didsbury.

 

[stockport1]

I think that you have to look at the Altrincham to Manchester Metrolink line as half of the north-south cross-city route that also combines the former converted heavy rail route from Bury to Manchester, to see this as a major Greater Manchester area transportation route.

There will be soon be another former heavy rail route from Rochdale-Oldham-Manchester that will also be fully converted to Manchester Metrolink operation and will provide another north-south cross-city route to Parrs Wood in East Didsbury.

Travelling internally in greater Manchester without trams is a sinch with the comprehensive bus services on on offer and the bus service differs little in speed or comfort from the tram. surely putting on extra bus services that mirror the rail routes is theway to go? create bus lanes to cover these routes?

i understand the rationale but how long do the significant number of cheshire commuters to manchester have to tolerate the poor levels of service currently on offer?

Another similar proposal to convert rose hill marple to metro link is another example of this madness. why not spend the money on reopening a link to macclesfield and serving bollington etc with local trains along with an alternative diversionary route from the south to central manchester stations?

I still think metrolink is small minded thinking for short term benefit.

 

[Xenophon PCDGS]

Travelling internally in Greater Manchester without trams is a "sinch" with the comprehensive bus services on on offer and the bus service differs little in speed or comfort from the tram. surely putting I still think Metrolink is small minded thinking for short term benefit.

You may have missed the point that I endeavoured to make, which is a direct transportation corridor from the north part of the Greater Manchester area to the south part of the area. One of the recent points that have been revealed was the lack of direct north-south cross-city bus routes since degregulation that cause a change of service needed to be made. I am old enough to remember bus routes such as Moston in North Manchester to Sale Moor in South Manchester, to name but one of these.

By all means, introduce new bus routes, but use these as part of a totally integrated public transport system comprising Heavy Rail train services, Manchester Metrolink and buses with low atmosphere-damaging exhaust emissions.

 

[stockport1]

You may have missed the point that I endeavoured to make, which is a direct transportation corridor from the north part of the Greater Manchester area to the south part of the area. One of the recent points that have been revealed was the lack of direct north-south cross-city bus routes since degregulation that cause a change of service needed to be made. I am old enough to remember bus routes such as Moston in North Manchester to Sale Moor in South Manchester, to name but one of these.

By all means, introduce new bus routes, but use these as part of a totally integrated public transport system comprising Heavy Rail train services, Manchester Metrolink and buses with low atmosphere-damaging exhaust emissions.

I do agree with you.

however the mid cheshire line devoted to metrolink is prob 1/5th of the whole line. the full traffic potential of the line cannot be realised due to single line running altrincham-stockport and pathing over the stockport viaduct.Never mind the capacity removed from the stockport viaduct by having to runthis way.

Id turn it back to heavy rail and have an exchange (or 2) with metrolink along the way...best of both worlds?

 

[tbtc]

Id turn it back to heavy rail

Where would you terminate trains at the Manchester end?

(not that we need another thread to get taken over by the Mid Cheshire line...)

 

[snail]

I still think metrolink is small minded thinking for short term benefit.

I translate that as "it doesn't work for me so it's rubbish".

 

[northwichcat]

I translate that as "it doesn't work for me so it's rubbish".

I have to agree with the original comment in part. The Altrincham line and Salford Quays line are pretty much at maximum capacity at busy times. Manchester-Salford Quays is also very slow by tram.

As bare minimum on the Altrincham line a new double track Metrolink only line needs to be built between Timperley and Altrincham to avoid the current problem with light rail having a single line section and heavy rail having a single line section. And no you can't convert the whole Mid-Cheshire line due to important freight workings and being diversionary routes.

Ideally for Salford Quays and MediaCity, use the freight line to Trafford Park as a starting point to form a passenger service to the Trafford Centre with an intermediate station for MediaCity. Why should MediaCity to Piccadilly almost take as long as Huddersfield to Piccadilly? It shouldn't, so you need a fast service alongside the Metrolink service.

 

[Nym]

Where would you terminate trains at the Manchester end?

(not that we need another thread to get taken over by the Mid Cheshire line...)

Manchester Central...

And there is space for an alternate route to Trafford Depot...

 

[tbtc]

Where would you terminate trains at the Manchester end?

(not that we need another thread to get taken over by the Mid Cheshire line...)

Manchester Central...

And there is space for an alternate route to Trafford Depot...

How to you find space for an alternative route from Trafford Bar into the city centre that doesn't conflict with trams?

Would you electrify all the way to Chester?

 

[Nym]

How to you find space for an alternative route from Trafford Bar into the city centre that doesn't conflict with trams?

Would you electrify all the way to Chester?

I'm sure I posted a google earth version donkeys years ago...

Basically...

Re-build Cornbrook Interchange so that everything through Trafford Bar, with seperate platforms for NR and Metrolink, however you like, preferably paired by direction at Cornbrook with Metrolink on the outside (to make use of the flyover to the south west, and provide another for the lines toward manchester to pair by usage on the viaducts, or just pair by use. Paired by use might be better for versatility as it would allow the CLC stoppers to use Central)

All Metrolink runs via Panoma you may want to re-build this with 4 platforms instead of 2, demolishing Adamson House to do it. After Panoma Junction the new section of line runs down Panoma Strand and crosses the water again, heading over Chester Road and running Paralell with White City Way, either at ground level or on viaduct (stealing space from the Police HQ), over Talbot Road and through the bowels club, and we're there, at Trafford Bar Depot.

The lines via St Wellingbrough Road will continue as Metrolink until capacity is even more constrained over Stockport Viaduct, then it will be four tracked between Trafford and Didsbury, 2 metrolink and 2 heavy rail into Central, the 2nd stockport station re-opended and everything via Hazel Grove (or most things) running into Central instead.

Meanwhile the line to Alty gets put back to 25kV AC, and install sections of four track running where possible for fast and slow services, 6tph slow into Central, formed of 323 like units, doubled up in the peaks, 3, 4, 6 or 8 car units. With fast services being run by 2 or 4 car Class 156 or similar units, limited stop, onwards to Chester and Crewe via Middlewitch.

Stockport becomes a 2tph shuttle from Alty with re-opened stations on route when money permits, until then, a shuttle...

 

[Xenophon PCDGS]

Do I hear a request for the re-opening of the Fallowfield Loop here ?

 

[tbtc]

I'm sure I posted a google earth version donkeys years ago...

Basically...

Re-build Cornbrook Interchange so that everything through Trafford Bar, with seperate platforms for NR and Metrolink, however you like, preferably paired by direction at Cornbrook with Metrolink on the outside (to make use of the flyover to the south west, and provide another for the lines toward manchester to pair by usage on the viaducts, or just pair by use. Paired by use might be better for versatility as it would allow the CLC stoppers to use Central)

All Metrolink runs via Panoma you may want to re-build this with 4 platforms instead of 2, demolishing Adamson House to do it. After Panoma Junction the new section of line runs down Panoma Strand and crosses the water again, heading over Chester Road and running Paralell with White City Way, either at ground level or on viaduct (stealing space from the Police HQ), over Talbot Road and through the bowels club, and we're there, at Trafford Bar Depot.

The lines via St Wellingbrough Road will continue as Metrolink until capacity is even more constrained over Stockport Viaduct, then it will be four tracked between Trafford and Didsbury, 2 metrolink and 2 heavy rail into Central, the 2nd stockport station re-opended and everything via Hazel Grove (or most things) running into Central instead.

Meanwhile the line to Alty gets put back to 25kV AC, and install sections of four track running where possible for fast and slow services, 6tph slow into Central, formed of 323 like units, doubled up in the peaks, 3, 4, 6 or 8 car units. With fast services being run by 2 or 4 car Class 156 or similar units, limited stop, onwards to Chester and Crewe via Middlewitch.

Stockport becomes a 2tph shuttle from Alty with re-opened stations on route when money permits, until then, a shuttle...

Exactly - a huge expense (effectively building a new line into central Manchester, knocking down buildings etc) for the sake of saving one path an hour over the Stockport Viaduct and providing more capacity on the Altricham - Manchester route. Plus then reopening the line through to Crewe too...

(PS: I know that Paul Sidorczuk likes to pick up on spellings - am disappointed he doesn't appear to have spotted the idea of a railway "through the bowels club" - that would certainly take guts )

 

[Nym]

Exactly - a huge expense (effectively building a new line into central Manchester, knocking down buildings etc) for the sake of saving one path an hour over the Stockport Viaduct and providing more capacity on the Altricham - Manchester route. Plus then reopening the line through to Crewe too...

(PS: I know that Paul Sidorczuk likes to pick up on spellings - am disappointed he doesn't appear to have spotted the idea of a railway "through the bowels club" - that would certainly take guts )

But...

When one is starting to possibly look at double decking Castlefeild Viaduct when this can increase capacity on the CLC and take 4tph off said viaduct while greatly simplifying moments. (And possibly offering an alternate freight route, albeit needing a reversal)

I wouldn't be looking at this now, but when we don't have enough paths and it's a choice between converting this back and re-opening Central or double decking castlefeild viaduct.

(I'd also look at trying to join in the Chat Moss and/or Windsor Bridge lines into Central too if there wasn't enough space for bays at Exchange and six track between Deal St and Vic (2 for Ex.) and 4 track between Ordsall Cord and Deal St.

 

[Greybeard33]

With Hale catching up Northwich in terms of patronage and patronage at Knutsford and heavy rail patronage at Altrincham booming, something that will just benefit Northwich (and stations on Chat Moss that are already set to get more services) will be very low priority.

As is the case from Knutsford and Hale.

The best all round solution is to extend the Airport spur to the Mid-Cheshire line and to then extend one of the services that terminates at the Airport to Chester or North Wales via Northwich and another to Liverpool via Northwich and Runcorn.

A bit of a contradiction here, because this solution would still leave Hale and Altrincham with only 1tph and no direct link to the Airport! Perhaps a shuttle service could also be provided between Altrincham and Knutsford to connect with the Airport services?