A 500% rise in 20 years?

[Harlesden]

Just saying.
In 1993, the single fare for an Underground journey wholly within Zone 1 was 90p.
The 2013 cash fare is £4.50.

 

[transmanche]

Just saying.
In 1993, the single fare for an Underground journey wholly within Zone 1 was 90p.
The 2013 cash fare is £4.50.

But, as I'm sure that you're aware, the cash price has been artificially inflated to dissuade people from paying in cash. The 'real' fare is the Oyster fare: £2.10 - a 133% increase.

 

[flymo]

Well accounting for inflation since 1993 that same 90p would be around £1.50 now.

 

[Wath Yard]

The 'real' fare is the Oyster fare: £2.10 - a 133% increase.

What's your definition of 'real'? Are people who don't live in London, or perhaps even this country, and therefore wouldn't have an Oyster card, who travel on the tube not real passengers?

 

[transmanche]

What's your definition of 'real'? Are people who don't live in London, or perhaps even this country, and therefore wouldn't have an Oyster card, who travel on the tube not real passengers?

You don't have to live in London to have an Oyster card!

You can get them at stations (some busy stations even have vending machines dispensing them) and from pretty much every newsagent in London. And in the near future (once the bus trial has proved itself) you'll be able to use any contactless payment card and get the Oyster price.

if you choose to pay the inflated cash fare, then you have more money than sense.

 

[455driver]

Well I dont live in London and I have got an oyster card, I have had it 4 years and topped it up once.

Anyone that pays for cash fares in London is a little silly really.

 

[Wath Yard]

I don't live in London and I have an Oyster but would you like to explain how well Oyster cards are advertised in say Devon and Cumbria? How many people outside of the south east, who may occassionally visit London are even aware of them? Or as I said previously, don't these people count?

 

[transmanche]

I don't live in London and I have an Oyster but would you like to explain how well Oyster cards are advertised in say Devon and Cumbria? How many people outside of the south east, who may occassionally visit London are even aware of them?

I won't do all your research for you, but here's some TfL research from 2009 on that very subject.

69% of of UK leisure visitors had unprompted awareness of Oyster. And that's in 2009.

 

[Ze Random One]

Surely any rate of growth should be calculated as compound inflation, rather than simple inflation?
This makes the year-on-year increase in the CASH fare 8.4%.
The year-on-year increase in the OYSTER fare is 4.3%.
As a comparison, the RPIX index (Retail Prices Index eXcluding mortgages) changed by an average of 3.0% over the period 1992 - 2011 (no data for 2012 is present, and since fares are now calculated on the basis of the previous year's RPI, that's not unreasonable)
There is still, quite clearly a disparity between other price changes and Z1 LU fares, but to blindly say 500% would be worthy of the "page 3" newspapers, and their deliberate statistical ignorance (anything for a good headline).
It should also be noted that I don't believe LU was always beholden unto inflationary-based rises in fares - was there not a period when they were expected to price according to demand (i.e., market-based pricing), thereby artificially raising the Z1 costs to price to the increased demand in Z1?
Finally, it should be noted that LU's cost bases do not necessarily follow general inflationary trends -- a lot of the equipment and materials they buy may not have seen the same inflation levels as consumer goods, as the cost of steel, concrete, specialist kit etc. may not have followed the general trends in clothing, food, consumer electronics and motor vehicles which have seen real-terms decreases in price in many cases.

 

[Wath Yard]

So 31% didn't. How then are they choosing to pay the higher price?

 

[transmanche]

So 31% didn't. How then are they choosing to pay the higher price?

Obviously you didn't bother to read the research then. Otherwise you'd have seen only 18% of those visitors paid a cash single fare - many others had one-day Travelcards.

 

[EM2]

I don't live in London and I have an Oyster but would you like to explain how well Oyster cards are advertised in say Devon and Cumbria? How many people outside of the south east, who may occassionally visit London are even aware of them? Or as I said previously, don't these people count?

I can't say about advertising, but I have friends all over the country, many of whom are infrequent visitors to London (once or twice a year), and almost all of them have an Oyster.

 

[Wath Yard]

Obviously you didn't bother to read the research then. Unless you're a very fast reader.

Try answering the question. You made the statement that people choose to pay the higher price, how is someone who is unaware of Oyster making a choice? Simple question, the answer is...

 

[transmanche]

You made the statement that people choose to pay the higher price, how is someone who is unaware of Oyster making a choice?

Read the research, then you'll be able to give an informed opinion.

Firstly, I'll remind you that it was 69% unprompted awareness of Oyster. (This is a standard way of measuring in such research.) That doesn't mean the same as 31% do not know about Oyster.

Secondly, only 18% of those visitors bought single fares. Many others bought one-day Travelcards. We don't know how many of that 18% bought Z1 only tickets.

Thirdly, it's from 2009. I guarantee you that awareness will be higher now. That was the point of the research!

Fourthly, those buying a single ticket will have seen Oyster posters and leaflets in the ticket hall. Oyster stickers all over the ticket machines and could have asked at the ticket office for advice.

Fifthly, even the most basic research on travelling in London will glean information on Oyster.

So yes; paying the inflated cash fare is a choice.

 

[Ze Random One]

Try answering the question. You made the statement that people choose to pay the higher price, how is someone who is unaware of Oyster making a choice? Simple question, the answer is...

This is common across many transport systems, paying a cash fare is more expensive than pre-purchased tickets or a fare-value card. Anyone with the remotest experience of travelling on mass transit will likely have come across this.
For example
Paris: Carnet 25% cheaper than 10 single fares
New York: Metrocard fares are 20% cheaper than an individual single fare (incorporating the 7% bonus for putting over $10 on the card)
Chicago: You can't get a single ticket for the 'L' without using a pre-payment farecard
The majority of Z1 tourists will most likely be using Travelcards in any case, if they're not on Oyster, and you will be aware that the Oyster daily cap and the relevant Travelcard price are identical.

 

[yorkie]

I don't live in London, but I have an Oyster card with auto top-up. I do not have to ever queue at a ticket office or ticket machine. The fares in London with Oyster are far better value than cash fares from York!

 

[Harlesden]

But, as I'm sure that you're aware, the cash price has been artificially inflated to dissuade people from paying in cash. The 'real' fare is the Oyster fare: £2.10 - a 133% increase.

How can the supplier of a service even be allowed to "artificially inflate" the price charged for the service? This is sheer profiteering at the expense of casual riders, tourists and any Oyster holder who has left his/her Oyster at home.
The paying customer should not be blackmailed into changing to Oyster by promises of half price fares unless the "half price" applies to a true fare and not an "artificially inflated" fare.
If TfL had really wanted to encourage people to use Oyster, then the Oyster fares should have been frozen for a time with reasonable annual rises applied only to cash fares

 

[transmanche]

This is sheer profiteering at the expense of casual riders, tourists and any Oyster holder who has left his/her Oyster at home.

The casual rider, tourist and Oyster holder who has left his/her Oyster at home can get a new Oyster from a ticket machine - the transaction takes no longer than buying a single ticket.

Then they can keep the card as a spare, give it to a family or friend, or claim back any unused credit/deposit at their convenience.

 

[martinsh]

if you choose to pay the inflated cash fare, then you have more money than sense.

Or maybe you have cmore principles than others ! I refuse to let Big Brother know where I'm travelling, thank you.

[ For same reason I refuse to have supermarket "loyalty" cards"]

It's discrimination against Luddites and should be illegal !
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

How can the supplier of a service even be allowed to "artificially inflate" the price charged for the service? This is sheer profiteering

Quite

 

[transmanche]

Or maybe you have cmore principles than others ! I refuse to let Big Brother know where I'm travelling, thank you

You do know that you don't have to register your card? Unregistered cards are as 'anonymous' as cash.

 

[NSEFAN]

How can the supplier of a service even be allowed to "artificially inflate" the price charged for the service? This is sheer profiteering at the expense of casual riders, tourists and any Oyster holder who has left his/her Oyster at home.
The paying customer should not be blackmailed into changing to Oyster by promises of half price fares unless the "half price" applies to a true fare and not an "artificially inflated" fare.
If TfL had really wanted to encourage people to use Oyster, then the Oyster fares should have been frozen for a time with reasonable annual rises applied only to cash fares

The service is more intensive and frequent than it used to be on many lines. Some lines have been converted for automatic operation whilst others have had new trains delivered. There has also been the expansion of the Overground network. Money for all these improvements has to come from somewhere. The government would prefer to shift the cost from the taxpayer onto the passenger wherever possible, so this is why above-inflation fare increases have been allowed to happen for so long.

This concept applies to mainline services too. Whilst with some effort you can usually knock down a rail fare with various tricks, an uninformed passenger will pay considerably more simply for having not done their homework.

 

[michael769]

Or maybe you have cmore principles than others ! I refuse to let Big Brother know where I'm travelling, thank you.

Well I now know you travel to London.

Thanks for the tip!

 

[tbtc]

How can the supplier of a service even be allowed to "artificially inflate" the price charged for the service? This is sheer profiteering at the expense of casual riders, tourists and any Oyster holder who has left his/her Oyster at home.
The paying customer should not be blackmailed into changing to Oyster by promises of half price fares unless the "half price" applies to a true fare and not an "artificially inflated" fare

It's a bit like the way that some companies charge you a lower price if you pay by direct debit/ receive paperless bills/ have a loyalty card etc.

Paying for your journeys by Oyster is obviously a lot cheaper for TfL (they don't need to employ people to sell your tickets, they don't need to pay commission to anyone, they don't need to maintain so many machines...), so they have an incentive to pass those cost savings onto Oyster passengers (if you want to buy a paper ticket from a person or from a machine then you are paying a premium for this).

Just be glad that TfL haven't (yet) gone down the Ryanair model of passing every single cost to the end user

 

[Starmill]

Obviously you didn't bother to read the research then. Otherwise you'd have seen only 18% of those visitors paid a cash single fare - many others had one-day Travelcards.

Everyone I know who has ever visited London has bought a travelcard. I didn't even realise zonal singles were still available until I watched The Tube. Can you get returns? That said, for my own... um purpouses, I can't really use an oyster.

 

[transmanche]

Can you get returns?

It's been so long since I bought a cash fare, I don't know!

I do remember that back in the day, a return cost twice the single fare. And off-peak, ticket machines would issue an ODTC if you requested a return - as they were cheaper.

 

[moogal]

No, there's no such thing as a return in TfL zonal fares. Every journey is a single.

 

[ian1944]

Re. the original post, 90p to £4.50 is a rise of "only" 400%.

 

[Mojo]

No, there's no such thing as a return in TfL zonal fares. Every journey is a single.

Although you can buy a return paper ticket for twice the price of a cash single (if it's cheaper than a Travelcard). This saves you from having to visit the ticket office/machine twice.