Scotrail - RMT Strike Ballot

[HH]

I find that statment bizarre from someone who works on the railways??

Unions in general, especially the rail unions (although several different ones) are historically built on solidarity, it would never happen

I find that statement naive in the extreme. People, by and large, look after number one first, then family, then friends - fellow union members might come a distant fourth. The strike voters here most likely have personal reasons for voting, many possibly wanting to take the 24th off; others are the core disaffected who will vote for a strike whatever the reason (or lack of).

I suspect that the actual numbers striking on 22nd will be indicative of the fault split between company and employee. The 24th will be more indicative of those who fancy Xmas Eve off (for which I have every sympathy).

 

[leedstraindude]

XC Train managers and Caterers have been called to strike on the 21st of December too. We were informed about 4 hours ago by the RMT.

 

[Roverman]

Of course the 24th is aimed at the public, i believe thats the whole point - to make an impact and cause as much disruption as possible.

The vast majority of the traveling public dont really care about the guy losing his job, all they want is a train to run on time, a seat on the train and a safe journey. So support is not what unions are setting out to achieved, what is to be achieved is the punters to be severely inconvenienced, moan and complain so Scotrail will be forced into acting.
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I find that statment bizarre from someone who works on the railways??

Unions in general, especially the rail unions (although several different ones) are historically built on solidarity, it would never happen
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Again call me old fashioned, and maybe im just instatutionalised but Unions are built on solidarity, the fact people are even saying this sort of stuff totally baffles me! Are you in a union? Do you understand the meaning of union????

I currently don't work on the railways, I have applied for a job with them.

Solidarity would suggest its something that everyone is talking about everytime they meet another colleague, or sit in the canteen, solidarity would be people voting the moment the ballots opened and openly discussing how they voted. A 35% turnout suggests its not that important to everyone else.

 

[gazza8]

I find that statement naive in the extreme. People, by and large, look after number one first, then family, then friends - fellow union members might come a distant fourth. The strike voters here most likely have personal reasons for voting, many possibly wanting to take the 24th off; others are the core disaffected who will vote for a strike whatever the reason (or lack of).

I suspect that the actual numbers striking on 22nd will be indicative of the fault split between company and employee. The 24th will be more indicative of those who fancy Xmas Eve off (for which I have every sympathy).

The 24th was never mentioned when members were balloted, so thats not valid. I agree totally that families come first, but from a union member in the railway for 29 years, i dont find the statement of solidarity to be extreme or nieve, if this issue ran over a period of months a re-ballot would maybe have differing results.

If you are in a rail union i am very suprised at your reply and im sure your fellow brothers would be also; if not then i understand your lack of knowledge on this subject.

 

[thelongestroad]

The mind boggles. I cannot justify either opinion without having been there.. I'm not sure anyone else can either.

As a member of railway staff I could quite well believe both sides of the story. Alas I return to the above opening statement.

 

[gazza8]

I currently don't work on the railways, I have applied for a job with them.

Solidarity would suggest its something that everyone is talking about everytime they meet another colleague, or sit in the canteen, solidarity would be people voting the moment the ballots opened and openly discussing how they voted. A 35% turnout suggests its not that important to everyone else.

If thats your view of union solidarity then if you are lucky enough to gain employment, please dont join a union!

Solidarity is a union of men and women of all differing grades sticking together for reason voted on by the members

The non voters arnt bothered either way but due to the union values will strike, should there be another ballot for further strike action the results may be different
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The mind boggles. I cannot justify either opinion without having been there.. I'm not sure anyone else can either.

As a member of railway staff I could quite well believe both sides of the story. Alas I return to the above opening statement.

As a railway union member..... For example you voted for no strike action, however the other members voted in favour and the union passed it

Would you break the line and work?

 

[Scotrail84]

XC Train managers and Caterers have been called to strike on the 21st of December too. We were informed about 4 hours ago by the RMT.

Should strike the same day as scotrail.

 

[6Z09]

I find that statement naive in the extreme. People, by and large, look after number one first, then family, then friends - fellow union members might come a distant fourth. The strike voters here most likely have personal reasons for voting, many possibly wanting to take the 24th off; others are the core disaffected who will vote for a strike whatever the reason (or lack of).

I suspect that the actual numbers striking on 22nd will be indicative of the fault split between company and employee. The 24th will be more indicative of those who fancy Xmas Eve off (for which I have every sympathy).

Can hardly believe that members would vote for a strike to get a day off!!
More likely they believe their colleague has been treated unfairly!

 

[ainsworth74]

Again call me old fashioned, and maybe im just instatutionalised but Unions are built on solidarity, the fact people are even saying this sort of stuff totally baffles me! Are you in a union? Do you understand the meaning of union????

I am aware of what a Union is and what it means. And were I to gain employment in an industry where Union membership is part and parcel of being in that industry I would join the appropriate Union and abide by the decisions of the membership in any such votes (even if I disagreed with the outcome of that vote).

However I don't think that invalidates my question. If 65% can't be bothered to vote (and my understanding was these things are done by post so not exactly much of a chore) then that does suggest a certain amount of 'not caring'. In which case I think it's reasonable to ask, if they don't care, will they strike? I do think it's a bit old fashioned just to assume that by being in a Union people will automatically strike when such action is agreed by a vote

 

[MadCommuter]

Interesting date choices which will barely affect commuters. Due to reduced numbers of people working on the 24th, the roads will be a lot quieter, so I'm not convinced the chosen strike dates will have a huge impact other than headline making.

 

[Greenback]

I am aware of what a Union is and what it means. And were I to gain employment in an industry where Union membership is part and parcel of being in that industry I would join the appropriate Union and abide by the decisions of the membership in any such votes (even if I disagreed with the outcome of that vote).

However I don't think that invalidates my question. If 65% can't be bothered to vote (and my understanding was these things are done by post so not exactly much of a chore) then that does suggest a certain amount of 'not caring'. In which case I think it's reasonable to ask, if they don't care, will they strike? I do think it's a bit old fashioned just to assume that by being in a Union people will automatically strike when such action is agreed by a vote

I don't think that all union members will strike automatically, but a large number will realise that without sticking together and abiding by the majority vote, the union will be eweaker, and should they find themselves needing union assistance, it may not be as effective as it might be as a result, as management will not take so much notice of future industrial action if they believe that such action will not be well supported.

 

[Smudger105e]

I am aware of what a Union is and what it means. And were I to gain employment in an industry where Union membership is part and parcel of being in that industry I would join the appropriate Union...

The 'Railway' is no longer a closed shop, and it is therefore not necessary to join a Trades Union.

I have worked in the industry since 1976.

I have never NOT been in a Trades Union. I have been a member of the following Unions. NUR, AUEW, TSSA and RMT. I have been a member of TSSA since 1986.

It is not Bob Crow who calls these strikes. He is merely the mouthpiece of the membership who make the decision whether to strike or not. All RMT members entitled to vote should strike on the days as advised by the Trades Union. If they decide not to, then I personally think that they should consider whether they should terminate their membership.

The thing with unions is if a pay rise or improvement in conditions are agreed then it's across the board. In a way the non-Union members are best off - no subscription to pay, they work and get paid for strike days and if industrial action is successful they benefit.

This is the case, but the Trades Unions are not there solely to negotiate improved pay and conditions with employers. They are also legally permitted to appoint Health & Safety Representative, support Members at disciplinary hearings, provide additional pay for long term sickness, legal advice and representation etc etc...

What other course of action is open to the RMT in this case? If they really feel there is no case to answer, or that the punishment is not apprpriate for the 'crime', there is no other powerful way to bring a case to the public's attention. In my opionion it is either fight the corner, or roll over and let the employer do whatever they want. And it could be someone else next week.

 

[gazza8]

I am aware of what a Union is and what it means. And were I to gain employment in an industry where Union membership is part and parcel of being in that industry I would join the appropriate Union and abide by the decisions of the membership in any such votes (even if I disagreed with the outcome of that vote).

However I don't think that invalidates my question. If 65% can't be bothered to vote (and my understanding was these things are done by post so not exactly much of a chore) then that does suggest a certain amount of 'not caring'. In which case I think it's reasonable to ask, if they don't care, will they strike? I do think it's a bit old fashioned just to assume that by being in a Union people will automatically strike when such action is agreed by a vote

Its not old fashioned, if your union ballots and industrial action is voted in by majority of voters and then people decide to work its renders any union power useless!!

I dont know what job youve applied for but i can assue you that the salary it holds is not that high because the toc thought, "that seems a fair wage" its through men in unions over the years sticking together to get it!

 

[Goatboy]

Is there a reason why the sacked driver didn't take his case to an independant tribuneral if he felt it was unfair dismissal? And if he did, what was the verdict?

 

[Smudger105e]

Is there a reason why the sacked driver didn't take his case to an independant tribuneral if he felt it was unfair dismissal? And if he did, what was the verdict?

It wasn't a driver, but the problem with Tribunals is that they cannot make an employer re-employ, they can say that an employer must pay compensation. Would this Railwayman be happier with his job or a cheque for 10 grand?

 

[michael769]

It wasn't a driver, but the problem with Trinerals is that they cannot make an employer re-employ, they can say that an employer must pay compensation. Would this Railwayman be happier with his job or a cheque for 10 grand?

Tribunals do have powers to order reinstatement.

http://www.lyonsdavidson.co.uk/news...ement-orders-for-unfairly-dismissed-employees

 

[Smudger105e]

Tribunals do have powers to order reinstatement.

http://www.lyonsdavidson.co.uk/news...ement-orders-for-unfairly-dismissed-employees

I stand corrected, it seems this has been clarified pretty recently. Thank you for pointing this out.

 

[sheff1]

Can hardly believe that members would vote for a strike to get a day off!!
More likely they believe their colleague has been treated unfairly!

Having been involved with many strike ballots over 4 decades, I can assure you that some people will indeed vote for a strike so they can have a day off. More though, as you say, will vote because they feel the management position is unnacceptable and they wish to make a stand against it.

 

[Smudger105e]

Tribunals do have powers to order reinstatement.

http://www.lyonsdavidson.co.uk/news...ement-orders-for-unfairly-dismissed-employees

But according to Government statistics (source http://www.justice.gov.uk/downloads...employment-trib-stats-april-march-2011-12.pdf ) in 2011/12 there were 186,300 cases accepted by Employment Tribunals (page 8), and the number of reinstatements ordered was 5 (I think, table 3 on page 10).

 

[Goatboy]

Has he seeked independant arbitration or not?

If he has - what was the result?

 

[michael769]

But according to Government statistics (source http://www.justice.gov.uk/downloads...employment-trib-stats-april-march-2011-12.pdf ) in 2011/12 there were 186,300 cases accepted by Employment Tribunals (page 8), and the number of reinstatements ordered was 5 (I think, table 3 on page 10).

In practice very few employees wish to return to an employer who dismissed them. Generally if a tribunal is involved there has been an irretrievable breakdown in the employer employee relationship.

 

[A-driver]

In practice very few employees wish to return to an employer who dismissed them. Generally if a tribunal is involved there has been an irretrievable breakdown in the employer employee relationship.

There is in general a breakdown between employer and employee in the railway industry. I know where you are coming from and agree but the employee will most probably never have met the hr directors who ordered his dismissal and so I doubt many rail employees would be against working fur their employer again after being sacked.

 

[reb0118]

This decision to strike by these employees strikes of total selfishness and I hope that Karma comes back to bite each and every one of them in due course.

I think you need a few home truths spelled out, young man! Do you have something personal against me? I may well be on strike on those days.

We have a secret ballot and as such you don't need to know how I voted however the truth is I did not vote. I had not made up my mind one way or the other on the matter and had not done so by the deadline so missed my chance.

That said a majority of those who voted did vote in favour of allowing strike action - note well they did not vote to strike per se but to allow strike action in their name i.e to give a mandate to the union to call a strike. The difference is subtle but important nevertheless. Again note well we are not told the actual days of the strike prior to voting and again note well we can not ask the executive to pick days to suit our social calendar

"Unity is Strength"

What do these words mean to you? If you are a member of a democratic union you must abide by the decisions of the said union, which in most cases have been passed by a majority of the members or otherwise there is no power to the union.

A union needs power to maintain the living standards of its members, and yes if possible to increase those standards. Do not listen to all the doom & gloom merchants whinging about the economy and austerity cuts - that is designed to keep you, the worker, in your place. There is plenty money in this country - just look at the payout to that Brooks character from the NoW - £10 million - now that is a scandal! Think about all the money wasted on the franchising shenanigans - the list goes on.......

Therefore whether I support the strike or not in private is immaterial as I will support it in public - by observing it.

"Collective Bargaining & Collective Responsibility

Again, think of these terms and what they mean to you? When people stand together they can achieve more, fact! If you think that this system is not correct then please inform the Cabinet as that is how they operate. Individual members of the Cabinet have the right to argue their point(s) about government policy behind closed doors but once a decision has been made (rightly or wrongly to that individual) then all members of the cabinet must toe the party line or resign on a matter of principle likewise union members must abide by the decisions of the majority in that union otherwise they should consider their membership.

Personally, I do not want the strikes to go ahead (as no doubt do the majority of our members and indeed the travelling public to whom, personally, I wish no inconvenience) but the decision and the strategic choice of dates may help to bring the parties back round the negotiating table. If these talks break down then striking may be the last option left.

 

[12CSVT]

819 members voted
548 yes votes
264 no votes
Of those who actually voted, more than two thirds voted yes.

The 35% turnout is significantly better than 14% for the PCC elections.

 

[wijit]

For what my opinion is worth, and I'm sure there are many who would say not a lot, the issue of the strike is relatively minor in the scheme of the cause and demanded solution.
There is clearly a level of dishonesty from the Union and there could be some dishonesty from the TOC, but there is most definitely an issue of total cynicism from the RMT in terms of timing alone.
Considering the RMT represents so many people who deal with the public day-to-day, I do not believe that by threatening strikes on key dates they way they do is productive and could in actual fact, give passengers an excuse for treating rail staff with even less respect.
If this guard is innocent, I would suggest a Scotrail's procedures would be robust enough to protect bot Scotrail and its' employees. which has been blown out of proportion, but things I have read so far just don't sit right.
I'd like to think this is a complaint
Bob Crow is an odious man who does hopelessly little when members need help the most, and that is invariably when there is little publicity to be gained.
I shall give you this little quote I heard from him myself at a football match where he was a guest of the board of directors for a club (aimed at Sammy McIlroy, then manager of Morecambe) "McilRoy, you little Irish Sh*t, f*ck off!"
It was only at half time that anyone spoke to him about his behaviour, now, if you were of irish origin, and you were a guard on the recieving end of such language, how would you feel?

 

[BrianTheLion]

Regardless of the facts of the incident, surely this whole debacle is down to the complexity of the UK ticketing structure and the confusion/confrontation it causes?

If from what I gather is correct and it is to do with a free/subsidised ticket involving an airport then surely its time to make the system simpler to follow for both passengers and staff??

The UK rail system has too many permutations of what is allowed and what isnt for my liking.

 

[Smudger105e]

There is clearly a level of dishonesty from the Union and there could be some dishonesty from the TOC

How do you come to this conclusion? I see that the TU sees unjust treatment of one of its members, and is taking robust action to have this wrong righted. I do not see why you appear to be siding with the TOC Management on this issue. Are you under the impression that TOCs always treat their staffs in a fair and reasonable manner? We are talking about someone's livelihood here, it's not as if he physically assaulted someone, is it?

If this guard is innocent, I would suggest a Scotrail's procedures would be robust enough to protect bot Scotrail and its' employees. which has been blown out of proportion, but things I have read so far just don't sit right.
I'd like to think this is a complaint

You think? I personally have been on the recieving end of disciplinary action on more than one occasion from a railway company, and trust me, the procedures are written by the companies, and are not written to protect the staffs. For example, one of my colleagues was recently dismissed for posting a tasteless joke on Facebook. It wasn't about his company, but his profile said he worked for them. Would we have taken industrial action if his sentence was not overturned? I don't know, but possibly.

Bob Crow is an odious man who does hopelessly little when members need help the most, and that is invariably when there is little publicity to be gained.

I disagree with this statement, I have met Bob Crow, and he is a very approachable and friendly individual. You seem to be totally anti strike, anti RMT and anti Bob Crow. This is your right in a democratic society like ours, as it is the right of the RMT staffs to support their dimissed colleague by voting democratically to take industrial action.

And of course any strike action is designed to cause maximum disruption, not to the travelling public, but to those managers who will try to keep things moving. Why should they get Christmas Eve off, while an RMT member is worrying himself sick about whether he has a job?

 

[ANorthernGuard]

How do you come to this conclusion? I see that the TU sees unjust treatment of one of its members, and is taking robust action to have this wrong righted. I do not see why you appear to be siding with the TOC Management on this issue. Are you under the impression that TOCs always treat their staffs in a fair and reasonable manner? We are talking about someone's livelihood here, it's not as if he physically assaulted someone, is it?



You think? I personally have been on the recieving end of disciplinary action on more than one occasion from a railway company, and trust me, the procedures are written by the companies, and are not written to protect the staffs. For example, one of my colleagues was recently dismissed for posting a tasteless joke on Facebook. It wasn't about his company, but his profile said he worked for them. Would we have taken industrial action if his sentence was not overturned? I don't know, but possibly.



I disagree with this statement, I have met Bob Crow, and he is a very approachable and friendly individual. You seem to be totally anti strike, anti RMT and anti Bob Crow. This is your right in a democratic society like ours, as it is the right of the RMT staffs to support their dimissed colleague by voting democratically to take industrial action.

And of course any strike action is designed to cause maximum disruption, not to the travelling public, but to those managers who will try to keep things moving. Why should they get Christmas Eve off, while an RMT member is worrying himself sick about whether he has a job?

Very well said

 

[snail]

Interesting date choices which will barely affect commuters. Due to reduced numbers of people working on the 24th, the roads will be a lot quieter, so I'm not convinced the chosen strike dates will have a huge impact other than headline making.

How many have to be inconvenienced for it to have an impact? If I was working in Scotland on the 24th and relying on a train to get home for Christmas I would be worrying.

 

[Kilted_Scot]

I have found this thread interesting, it certainly has provoked some strong feelings. I also think its funny how many "rumours" and random "facts" seem to be appearing. I dont think it is fair to judge the union members who did or did not vote. They all have their own reasoning as anyone else does in any other democratic vote.

The key thing here is that those who did vote, voted for strike. I personally feel it is unfortunate for the members of the public who are affected but would I go against the unions democratic vote? I am afraid not.