Extending the railway to Thamesmead?

[Ivo]

Thamesmead is one of largest areas of London to have no railway station to call its own. It has Abbey Wood to the south, and Plumstead to the South-West, but neither of these is especially convenient for the town.

Over the years, several schemes have been proposed that would bring the railway to the town. The most obvious one would have been the Fleet line, the original plan for the Jubilee line that would have seen services running via Fenchurch Street and the Docklands to Thamesmead; a later scheme was to add Thamesmead to the Jubilee line extension with a diversion at North Greenwich (hence the third platform), but the service is so busy that the full capacity up to Stratford is needed and there is also the issue of extra pressure on Canary Wharf should commuters from Thamesmead travel there. Otherwise, the DLR has been slated for a route there before now, possibly as a diversion of the Barking Riverside plan, and I have even seen suggestions for a heavy rail route from Barking (which sounds ridiculous, and ultimately probably is).

My suggestion would be different. If Crossrail is due to terminate at Abbey Wood anyway, what is preventing TfL et al from building an extension beyond Abbey Wood - specifically a long tunnelled curve round to Thamesmead? I realise that the cost would be pretty steep, almost certainly on the "wrong" side of £100M, but otherwise is this plan viable? And whether it is or not, do you have any alternative suggestions, or do you think that the current method of transporting the town's commuters by bus to Abbey Wood is adequate?

 

[HSTEd]

I thought the point of terminating at Abbey Wood was to support further extensions along that line (I can't quite remember the name) at a later time?

 

[Ivo]

Extensions to Gravesend have been safeguarded for some time (2008 maybe?), but is there really enough demand for a service as frequent as every five minutes? Why can't (for sake of argument) four of these run round to Thamesmead instead?

I may be overlooking something of course, but looking at various articles earlier today - and later in my London AZ - it did strike me as being a bit odd.

 

[Nym]

I thought the point of terminating at Abbey Wood was to support further extensions along that line (I can't quite remember the name) at a later time?

Gravesend, with an improved interchange at Ebbsfleet for HS1.

 

[OxtedL]

What might the financial outlook be on an amphibious bus between Thamesmead and somewhere Barking/Dagenham -ey? I have no grasp of the costs and operational difficulties associated with amphibious buses, but might this be significantly cheaper (and less difficult to construct) than a railway line, whilst helping provide connectivity to the north of the river?

 

[Eagle]

What would be the point of an amphibious bus when it could just use the Woolwich Ferry, which is less than half a mile upstream?

And of course there's the Thames Gateway bridge, if anyone ever gets round to building it, that would link the two places you name directly by road.

 

[bicbasher]

At least Abbey Wood is getting an improved service from Crossrail which will help Thamesmead residents to reach central London a lot more easier than at present from the existing Southeastern service, although they'll continue to be reliant on buses to reach the station and for local journeys to Plumstead, Woolwich etc.

 

[TrenHotel]

Local politicans are obsessed with building something across the river there - the Thames Gateway Bridge was axed by Boris, but now he wants to build a ferry there, the worst of all compromises.

Obviously I don't want to demolish too much of Barking, but extending the GOBLIN or even the Hammersmith & City across the river would solve some of that cross-river problem. Or even building a branch off the mainline from Fenchurch Street.

 

[OxtedL]

What would be the point of an amphibious bus when it could just use the Woolwich Ferry, which is less than half a mile upstream?

A considerable amount of Thamesmead is more than 2 miles upstream of the ferry (at least on the map I'm looking at, which I hope is not lying), making such a route extremely indirect. Buses going in that vague direction already exist.

I see entirely the point you are making though - it very much depends on how hideously expensive floating buses are to run as to whether you'd even consider it.

 

[Manchester77]

perhaps we could use jubilee and DLR?
North Greenwich was aligned in such a way to allow a future extension to thamesmead iirc
and there is always talk of a DLR extension eastwards as well as westwards so why not utilise this??

 

[Class172]

That's also why North Greenwich was built with 3 platforms isn't it?

 

[OxtedL]

It claims this on Wikipedia, but I cannot find an independent reference to it.

North Greenwich's 3rd platform would make sense as a stand-alone operationally useful addition, were such things comprehend-able.

 

[Nym]

It claims this on Wikipedia, but I cannot find an independent reference to it.

North Greenwich's 3rd platform would make sense as a stand-alone operationally useful addition, were such things comprehend-able.

At the moment it's a very useful reversing siding taking up the terminators in the peak that Stratford can't handle.

 

[Eagle]

Might I be the first to suggest that only in London would an area being a mile and a half from a rail station (which in my book is just about within the bounds of walking distance, and it's not as if there aren't lots of buses anyway) be considered a problem that needs fixing by building a new railway line. #londonfirstworldproblems

 

[tbtc]

What might the financial outlook be on an amphibious bus between Thamesmead and somewhere Barking/Dagenham -ey? I have no grasp of the costs and operational difficulties associated with amphibious buses, but might this be significantly cheaper (and less difficult to construct) than a railway line, whilst helping provide connectivity to the north of the river?

it very much depends on how hideously expensive floating buses are to run as to whether you'd even consider it

This was looked at as a replacement for the Renfrew Ferry over the Clyde but rejected

Might I be the first to suggest that only in London would an area being a mile and a half from a rail station (which in my book is just about within the bounds of walking distance, and it's not as if there aren't lots of buses anyway) be considered a problem that needs fixing by building a new railway line. #londonfirstworldproblems

Spot on (as usual)

 

[Class377/5]

That's also why North Greenwich was built with 3 platforms isn't it?

Yes and it even has the junctions on the eastern side to allow to it too. However there's so much demand now and with the line now going to 32tph there won't be the justification for a diverted branch. Especially as the DLR Airport line has filled in the gap where the Fleet/Jubilee lines would have gone.

And being pedantic, it's not the original idea of the Jubilee to go there. It was one of the later Fleet Line ideas but certainly not the original.

 

[Eagle]

And being pedantic, it's not the original idea of the Jubilee to go there. It was one of the later Fleet Line ideas but certainly not the original.

The original plan was, beyond Charing Cross, to go to Ludgate Circus, Cannon Street, Surrey Quays, New Cross and Lewisham (and possibly Hayes). I think New Cross was where they initially tested the TBMs.

 

[telstarbox]

Might I be the first to suggest that only in London would an area being a mile and a half from a rail station (which in my book is just about within the bounds of walking distance, and it's not as if there aren't lots of buses anyway) be considered a problem that needs fixing by building a new railway line. #londonfirstworldproblems

Especially as London has the best integrated ticketing in the UK, so a bus + train or bus + tube journey wouldn't necessarily cost more than a direct train journey unlike in other cities.

 

[SF-02]

At least Abbey Wood is getting an improved service from Crossrail which will help Thamesmead residents to reach central London a lot more easier than at present from the existing Southeastern service, although they'll continue to be reliant on buses to reach the station and for local journeys to Plumstead, Woolwich etc.

It's not a massive difference or a lot easier really under Crossrail to central London. In the peaks Abbey Wood to London Bridge can be done in 23 mins. Crossrail will be under 20 to Liverpool Street. Going to Canary Wharf and off peak will see a bigger difference in journey time, and of course there are more central London options than London Bridge, Charing Cross, and Cannon Street as at present.

The problem is the time from Thamesmead to Abbey Wood station which will remain. Walking from north Thamesmead is a long way and involves crossing a dual carriageway and not really an option. The road layout of dual carriageways and lack of paving doesn't help, nor does the sewer bank, or the dingy bridges and underpasses you would have to navigate. It's not a simple walk like in most towns.

Buses can be slow and meandering. Getting from Thamesmead to Abbey Wood can take longer than Abbey Wood to London. A tram or express bus south along Thamesmead's underused dual carriageways to Abbey Wood station would be good, along with it going north over a bridge to the myriad transport lines just north of the river.

 

[JamesRowden]

Expanding the idea of extending the Bakerloo line to Hayes (taking over the Lewisham - Bechenham Junction / Hayes route), the Bakerloo line could run via South Bermondsey and Depford on its way between Elephant & Castle and Lewisham and also take over the line from Depford to Abbey Wood as a second branch and possibly with an underground extension from Abbey Wood to Thamesmead. Crossrail could then be extened from Abbey Wood to Dartford.

This would give the lines converted a far more frequent service to Central London with more places to change within Central London. This would also increase the frequency of services that could run through London Bridge from other lines.

It might be better to extend the Bakerloo line from Waterloo to Lewisham via London Bridge and leave ~1tp10m running to Elephent & Castle to improve the quality of connections available (and considering the fact that when I travelled on the Bakerloo line beyond Waterloo the train appeared to be pretty much empty).

 

[OxtedL]

Might I be the first to suggest that only in London would an area being a mile and a half from a rail station (which in my book is just about within the bounds of walking distance, and it's not as if there aren't lots of buses anyway) be considered a problem that needs fixing by building a new railway line. #londonfirstworldproblems

In London, where there are stations literally everywhere, it could be perceived that being a long way from the nearest station leads to a variety of potential social issues - some of the most deprived areas of London are in station deserts.

 

[W-on-Sea]

Thamesmead is a profoundly odd - and, for London, remarkably isolated place. And also a place that has a high density of population,at least in the earlier estates.

The walk from Abbey Wood station to even the nearest parts of Thamesmead isn't particularly pleasant (or arguably, after dark, obviously safe or secure) - - - there is a whole history of bad planning decisions in which both the public sector and (particularly later on) private sector are implicated. There used to be "express buses" (the 177 express and so on) linking Thamesmead directly with central London in the rush hours - - the fact that they didn't last for long suggests they were not an attractive means of transport for those who needed to get into town.

A Jubilee line branch is surely long overdue. A link across the river to Barking, etc, wouldn't be much use for those who live in TM and work elsewhere in SE London (Woolwich, Plumstead, etc) - - even if it would open up potential new work locations in east London north of the river (although in fact the areas around Barking are themselves fairly impoverished by London standards, at least as much as TM). Crossrail might do as an alternative, but I'm not convinced that the most suitable route for a railway line to Thamesmead from the London direction (or other key centres in SE London) would go through Abbey Wood at all.