ATW Premier Service

[merlodlliw]

Anyway, back to the Premier service. How far in advance do you have to book 1st class? Is it up to two hours before departure like other reservable trains? From what I've seen it can only seat 14 or 15 or so but presumably the train staff know how many to expect and wouldn't turn away anybody who wished to upgrade on board?

[/QUOTE] Mr Williams

Suppose it gives a rough idea of how many are travelling First, by booking in advance, so food is not thrown away etc, I don't suppose there are many chance payers on Gerald that upgrade.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

Yes, I guess, but my question is its advertised in the timetable as having the full service. Why is this, if its not running?

You have to remember this is an open access service,which can be withdrawn at anytime & does not fulfil any franchise requirement that it has to run with a buffet on any day.

 

[Goatboy]

You have to remember this is an open access service,which can be withdrawn at anytime & does not fulfil any franchise requirement that it has to run with a buffet on any day.

Thats not really my point - I don't care if it has a buffet or not - my point is that it's still in the online timetables as having this facility, if it was booked a 175 wouldnt this therefore not show?

 

[merlodlliw]

Could be a change in store, Charlie Hume is showing Gerald running to Crewe on Saturdays only 22 & 29th December.

However my contacts at ATW tell me 175 will be used in place of Gerald on certain days between Holyhead & Cardiff over Christmas after Dec 21st.

this is what North Wales Rail newsboard says today

Loco-hauled for Christmas

We understand that the Class 67-hauled 'Premier Express' train will operate the following services on Saturdays 22 and 29 December 2012:

1K50 03:38 Holyhead-Crewe
1D04 08:37 Crewe-Holyhead
1K51 12:24 Holyhead-Crewe
1D01 14:27 Crewe-Holyhead
1K52 17:15 Holyhead-Crewe
1D03 20:44 Crewe-Holyhead

The reason for this is stated as high bookings on ferries on these dates, but for railfans it looks like a good opportunity to ride on and/or photograph this train in daylight. Let's hope it happens.

 

[SprinterMan]

Diagrams now online:
1K50 03:35 Holyhead-Crewe
1D04 08:37 Crewe-Holyhead
1K51 12:22 Holyhead-Crewe
1D01 14:27 Crewe-Holyhead
1K52 17:15 Holyhead-Crewe
1D03 20:44 Crewe-Holyhead

Calling pattern is Holyhead-Bangor-Llandudno Junction-Chester-Crewe.

Adam

 

[Goatboy]

Are we definately sure there is no 67 hauled service on the 27th or 28th?

It looks to be in there?

http://www.realtimetrains.co.uk/train/P41225/2012/12/27/advanced

 

[Rhydgaled]

Is there much track between Holyhead and Llandudno with a linespeed above 75mph? I am wondering whether the times I get from journey planners for the stopping trains (no 100mph in Wales, except on the South Wales Main Line, I believe, so 158 and 175 timings are probably the same) are suitable for class 150 operation (as a Llandudno - Holyhead service, allowing through services to be sped up).

I am also wondering how easy or hard it is to change paths into / out of Manchester Piccadilly (I'm pretty sure there'd be no paths for extra services, but could the north Wales service leave MAN at XX:18 instead to cut the turnround time?)

I'm trying to come up with suggestions for a letter I intend to write with the objectives of improving capacity (by changing service groups around in a way that I hope would allow 3-car 175s and LHCS to be targeted at busier services more easily, prefrably with a few extra vehicles (LHCS due to unavailability of additional 158s)) and permitting an hourly Cambrian Main Line service without tying up two more class 158s and hence limiting diagraming flexibility.

The basic idea is:

• Hourly Llandudno - Crewe service (inital estimate 4 diagrams)
• Hourly Holyhead - Manchester (using current Llandudno paths with XX:57 arrivals into MAN, but at XX:18 departures from MAN) (inital estimate 6 diagrams)
• 2-hourly Chester - Cardiff service
• 2-hourly Chester - Birmingham International service (2-car to Shrewsbury, connecting to 2-car from Aberystwyth)
• 2-hourly 2-car Aberystwyth - Birmingham International service (coupling to Chester train at Shrewsbury)
• 2-hourly Pwllheli/Aberystwyth - Birmingham International service, 4-car from Machynlleth to Birmingham as now

The ERTMS-necessary services (Cambrian and Chester to Birmingham) came out at 16 diagrams, which I think is at most 1 unit more than the current Cambrian - Birmingham - Holyhead curcuit.

The Llandudno - Crewe trains remove the need for a Crewe - Chester shuttle, hence my interest in whether the 150 that releases could do some north-west Wales stoppers (it wouldn't be able to do Llanuduno - Holyhead every two hours though, maybe turn back at Bangor or investigate Conwy Valley Line interworking...)

I am guessing the Llandudno - Crewe and Chester - Cardiff diagrams would require less capacity than current Llandudno - Manchester and Holyhead - Cardiff trains, allowing LHCS and 3-car 175s to be concentrated more on the Holyhead and South Wales to Manchester trains, which I think are supposed to be the busiest (I've cetainly experience quite severe crowding on the 2-car 15:30 Manchester - Pembroke Dock, esspecially after Crewe (I alight at Shrewsbury for the Cambrian, so don't know how it is after then).
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

Diagrams now online:
1K50 03:35 Holyhead-Crewe
1D04 08:37 Crewe-Holyhead
1K51 12:22 Holyhead-Crewe
1D01 14:27 Crewe-Holyhead
1K52 17:15 Holyhead-Crewe
1D03 20:44 Crewe-Holyhead

Calling pattern is Holyhead-Bangor-Llandudno Junction-Chester-Crewe.

Adam

Interesting... all those services are listed as standard class only, will they take the buffet car off this time? Even more interesting is that three of those workings are given as a 100mph loco pulling 140 tonnes but the other three (the Crewe-bound legs) are for a 95mph loco pulling 245 tonnes. It can't be different trains can it?

 

[SprinterMan]

Interesting... all those services are listed as standard class only, will they take the buffet car off this time? Even more interesting is that three of those workings are given as a 100mph loco pulling 140 tonnes but the other three (the Crewe-bound legs) are for a 95mph loco pulling 245 tonnes. It can't be different trains can it?

As the extra capacity is needed, I would assume they will run with 1st class declassified. All services will be worked by the same set, the different timings are just a throwback from when Class 57s were used instead of 67s, and don't really matter :P

Adam

 

[merlodlliw]

Diagrams now online:
1K50 03:35 Holyhead-Crewe
1D04 08:37 Crewe-Holyhead
1K51 12:22 Holyhead-Crewe
1D01 14:27 Crewe-Holyhead
1K52 17:15 Holyhead-Crewe
1D03 20:44 Crewe-Holyhead

Calling pattern is Holyhead-Bangor-Llandudno Junction-Chester-Crewe.

Gerald is an express now
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

Are we definately sure there is no 67 hauled service on the 27th or 28th?

It looks to be in there?

http://www.realtimetrains.co.uk/train/P41225/2012/12/27/advanced

No I am only saying what ATW staff have told me. For example it wont run on the 27th as this is too early for the start ups. Only time will tell.

Bob

 

[Goatboy]

No I am only saying what ATW staff have told me. For example it wont run on the 27th as this is too early for the start ups. Only time will tell.

Bob

Is there no way we can get a reasonable guarantee, I don't want to travel that way if it isn't running.

 

[TDK]

Is there no way we can get a reasonable guarantee, I don't want to travel that way if it isn't running.

You can never get a guarentee a stock change can happen minutes before a service is run depending on unit fit for service, driver guard traction knowledge etc. I used to have folks turning up to ride behind a certain 67 and then be told I have to do an engine swap at the last minute to the disgust of the spotters who had sometimes travelled hundereds of miles and stopped in hotels to ride behind a certain loco so unfortunately if you are not a gambler I would stay at home.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

Is there much track between Holyhead and Llandudno with a linespeed above 75mph?

Only about 2 miles between Llanfairfechan and Penmaumaur and this is 90mph
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

Is there much track between Holyhead and Llandudno with a linespeed above 75mph? I am wondering whether the times I get from journey planners for the stopping trains (no 100mph in Wales, except on the South Wales Main Line, I believe, so 158 and 175 timings are probably the same) are suitable for class 150 operation (as a Llandudno - Holyhead service, allowing through services to be sped up).

I am also wondering how easy or hard it is to change paths into / out of Manchester Piccadilly (I'm pretty sure there'd be no paths for extra services, but could the north Wales service leave MAN at XX:18 instead to cut the turnround time?)

I'm trying to come up with suggestions for a letter I intend to write with the objectives of improving capacity (by changing service groups around in a way that I hope would allow 3-car 175s and LHCS to be targeted at busier services more easily, prefrably with a few extra vehicles (LHCS due to unavailability of additional 158s)) and permitting an hourly Cambrian Main Line service without tying up two more class 158s and hence limiting diagraming flexibility.

The basic idea is:

• Hourly Llandudno - Crewe service (inital estimate 4 diagrams)
• Hourly Holyhead - Manchester (using current Llandudno paths with XX:57 arrivals into MAN, but at XX:18 departures from MAN) (inital estimate 6 diagrams)
• 2-hourly Chester - Cardiff service
• 2-hourly Chester - Birmingham International service (2-car to Shrewsbury, connecting to 2-car from Aberystwyth)
• 2-hourly 2-car Aberystwyth - Birmingham International service (coupling to Chester train at Shrewsbury)
• 2-hourly Pwllheli/Aberystwyth - Birmingham International service, 4-car from Machynlleth to Birmingham as now

The ERTMS-necessary services (Cambrian and Chester to Birmingham) came out at 16 diagrams, which I think is at most 1 unit more than the current Cambrian - Birmingham - Holyhead curcuit.

The Llandudno - Crewe trains remove the need for a Crewe - Chester shuttle, hence my interest in whether the 150 that releases could do some north-west Wales stoppers (it wouldn't be able to do Llanuduno - Holyhead every two hours though, maybe turn back at Bangor or investigate Conwy Valley Line interworking...)

I am guessing the Llandudno - Crewe and Chester - Cardiff diagrams would require less capacity than current Llandudno - Manchester and Holyhead - Cardiff trains, allowing LHCS and 3-car 175s to be concentrated more on the Holyhead and South Wales to Manchester trains, which I think are supposed to be the busiest (I've cetainly experience quite severe crowding on the 2-car 15:30 Manchester - Pembroke Dock, esspecially after Crewe (I alight at Shrewsbury for the Cambrian, so don't know how it is after then).
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---
Interesting... all those services are listed as standard class only, will they take the buffet car off this time? Even more interesting is that three of those workings are given as a 100mph loco pulling 140 tonnes but the other three (the Crewe-bound legs) are for a 95mph loco pulling 245 tonnes. It can't be different trains can it?

Try applying for a job as a train planner with ATW, that will be the only way you will have any influence on path and unit diagrams however I am sure that ATW would be thankful for your suggestions.

 

[Chester025]

Are we definately sure there is no 67 hauled service on the 27th or 28th?

It looks to be in there?

http://www.realtimetrains.co.uk/train/P41225/2012/12/27/advanced

It will work southbound on the 24th then return northbound on the 28th.

 

[Goatboy]

It will work southbound on the 24th then return northbound on the 28th.

Is there a reason why its still listed for the 27th then?

 

[merlodlliw]

Is there a reason why its still listed for the 27th then?

I presume you are looking at Nat rails logos etc, remember ATW had it down as a dolly trolly in their timetables Sept to Dec As Chester says Gerald is spending is hols in Cardiff for Christmas.

You are looking at 24th 175 down probably to Chester (look at ATWs cut offs from Cardff
27th 175 down (no up)
28th 175 up

 

[TDK]

I presume you are looking at Nat rails logos etc, remember ATW had it down as a dolly trolly in their timetables Sept to Dec As Chester says Gerald is spending is hols in Cardiff for Christmas.

You are looking at 24th 175 down probably to Chester (look at ATWs cut offs from Cardff
27th 175 down (no up)
28th 175 up

To be honest Bob most passengers in general do not give a monkeys what the traction is as long as it gets them there, I have had passengers trying to board a 2-SUB sandite train in the past and this does not even have door handles or doors (back in the slam door days of course)

 

[Goatboy]

To be honest Bob most passengers in general do not give a monkeys what the traction is as long as it gets them there

I think you'd have more than a few complaints if you swapped all the HST's in Paddington for 4x2 car 150 formations on the Bristol services

 

[merlodlliw]

To be honest Bob most passengers in general do not give a monkeys what the traction is as long as it gets them there, I have had passengers trying to board a 2-SUB sandite train in the past and this does not even have door handles or doors (back in the slam door days of course)

Fully agree, so long as I get home during Xmas week, it would not bother me what traction is in use. I presume ATW will have every class in use,with no spares.


Bob

 

[TDK]

Fully agree, so long as I get home during Xmas week, it would not bother me what traction is in use. I presume ATW will have every class in use,with no spares.


Bob

I think you would presume correct however there will always be a few units in for exam, don't quote me on this one but ATW do not have many spare units knocking around on a day to day basis so unless the timetable is differnet from a normal Mon-Sat timetable I would just expect the norm.

 

[merlodlliw]

I think you would presume correct however there will always be a few units in for exam, don't quote me on this one but ATW do not have many spare units knocking around on a day to day basis so unless the timetable is differnet from a normal Mon-Sat timetable I would just expect the norm.

We will keep it to ourselves BTW Dot to Dot is 7 days a week now,

 

[Rhydgaled]

Only about 2 miles between Llanfairfechan and Penmaumaur and this is 90mph

Thanks. How much would this reduce the journey time on a stopper though compared to a 75mph 150 running the service?

I presume ATW will have every class in use,with no spares.

If everything in use, with no spares, wouldn't that mean either two loco-hauled sets or a 6-car loco-hauled rake (8-car if the 1st class buffets are included) (adding the spare coaches to the normal formation). And what about the Mrk2s, even when ATW claim to have everything in use, they don't ever seem to touch the Mrk2s. An unacceptable waste of stock in my opinion when trains are crammed and/or worked by 150s vice 175s and 158s.

don't quote me on this one but ATW do not have many spare units knocking around on a day to day basis so unless the timetable is differnet from a normal Mon-Sat timetable I would just expect the norm.

The North Wales Rail Noticeboard carried a hint to purchase Today's Railways UK one week. In that magazine I discovered that ATW only diagram one 'hot spare', a class 150 at Chester. Does that mean that if any unit fails, the 150 is the only thing that can take over and if two units fail one diagram's services are canceled or are there 'non-hot spares' also? If the latter, what is the difference between a spare that is hot and a spare that isn't, is the hot one left with engine running wasting fuel?

 

[sprinterguy]

If the latter, what is the difference between a spare that is hot and a spare that isn't, is the hot one left with engine running wasting fuel?

If it's anything like the "hot spare" Voyager that XC keep at New Street then no, the engine is not kept running. However I presume that the hot spare has a crew allocated to it (I could be wrong), rather than having to rustle up a driver and guard from somewhere when it is needed in service.

 

[TDK]

We will keep it to ourselves BTW Dot to Dot is 7 days a week now,

See you on the Bidstons

 

[SovietGaz]

Back to the Premier Service now gents...

My reservation for this Friday in 1st Class reads as 'Coach I' or maybe 'Coach 1' what's the break down there? I know there isn't enough coaches to warrant a Coach I.

 

[SprinterMan]

Back to the Premier Service now gents...

My reservation for this Friday in 1st Class reads as 'Coach I' or maybe 'Coach 1' what's the break down there? I know there isn't enough coaches to warrant a Coach I.

I would assume it's labelled as Coach 1 to indicate 1st class, although I could be wrong. I did Flint to Bangor on the Premier train last night and I had forgotten just how good it was, it is so much quieter and smoother than the similarly refurbished 158s. Also, I have found that if you buy an advance ticket online with ATW, it will give you a generic reservation with no seat, but if you buy a normal ticket online then choose to reserve a seat, you are assigned an actual seat.

Adam

 

[SovietGaz]

I would assume it's labelled as Coach 1 to indicate 1st class, although I could be wrong. I did Flint to Bangor on the Premier train last night and I had forgotten just how good it was, it is so much quieter and smoother than the similarly refurbished 158s. Also, I have found that if you buy an advance ticket online with ATW, it will give you a generic reservation with no seat, but if you buy a normal ticket online then choose to reserve a seat, you are assigned an actual seat.

Adam

It was an advance 1st Class from a station got seat number 6B. Not hard to find the 1st Class bit anyway.

Cant wait for it should be a nice change to my usual 158s. Also got a 221 and a HST this week as well.

 

[merlodlliw]

I would assume it's labelled as Coach 1 to indicate 1st class, although I could be wrong. I did Flint to Bangor on the Premier train last night and I had forgotten just how good it was, it is so much quieter and smoother than the similarly refurbished 158s. Also, I have found that if you buy an advance ticket online with ATW, it will give you a generic reservation with no seat, but if you buy a normal ticket online then choose to reserve a seat, you are assigned an actual seat.

Adam

Indeed no under slung engines, it is unbeatable.I was its biggest critic, but in standard no other toc surpasses it.


Bob

 

[SovietGaz]

Indeed no under slung engines, it is unbeatable.I was its biggest critic, but in standard no other toc surpasses it.


Bob

Do you get the same feeling on a HST?

 

[All Line Rover]

Back to the Premier Service now gents...

My reservation for this Friday in 1st Class reads as 'Coach I' or maybe 'Coach 1' what's the break down there? I know there isn't enough coaches to warrant a Coach I.

First Class is Coach I. Just as 4-car XC Voyagers only have coaches A-B-D-F, this does not mean that the Premier Service has 9 coaches.

 

[SovietGaz]

First Class is Coach I. Just as 4-car XC Voyagers only have coaches A-B-D-F, this does not mean that the Premier Service has 9 coaches.

I suppose that makes sense then. Would be great to see a 9 Coach Premier Service one day.

 

[142094]

Anyone know how much the supplement is for a journey HHD - CDF with a staff standard pass who wants to travel in 1st?

 

[merlodlliw]

Do you get the same feeling on a HST?

In many ways yes, but Gerald is superior, plus the 67 is quieter, and even quieter when pushing from the pax point of view
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

I suppose that makes sense then. Would be great to see a 9 Coach Premier Service one day.

I don't see this occurring as a 1821 departure, its guaranteed to run to the end of the current tocs franchise as it is now,plus the take up in first is so weak.
But as an open access service, it can be pulled at any time, but this wont occur.