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Future of the Intercity 125s

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AndyLandy

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Basically, the only places that HSTs are likely to be useful for are the handful that'll continue running the Paddington-Penzance services.

You could potentially use some on the Chiltern services instead of 67+DVTs, but I'm not sure there's much to be gained in doing that.

By the time we're looking at this, I doubt even XC will still have any need for HSTs, since they'll likely gain displaced 22x sets from either MML or West Coast.

In fact, it's possible that once some core XC routes are electrified, there'll be an abundance of 22x sets and they could run the PAD-PNZ services, doing away with HSTs entirely.

Now, if we weren't ordering bi-mode IEPs, I can think of some clever uses for HSTs, but bi-mode pretty much wipes out any chance of them coming to fruition.
 
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D365

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The slower acceleration that HSTs will (probably) have compared to IEP is just one of the reasons why bi-mode sets are on order?
 

AndyLandy

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The slower acceleration that HSTs will (probably) have compared to IEP is just one of the reasons why bi-mode sets are on order?

Essentially, bi-mode sets are on order because we won't have fully wired all the IC routes by the time DDA compliance is mandatory. Making HST trailers compliant will be prohibitively expensive, so new bi-modes have been ordered. (Or, at least that's my understanding)

My concern is that it's short-sighted as large chunks of the CrossCountry network will be fully wired during CP6, so fully electric trains could be ordered for those routes, and the cascaded Voyagers could have saved the purchase of bi-mode IEPs. I suspect that again, it boils down to DDA compliance timing, it should be possible to free up a lot of 22x sets during CP6, but probably not before 2020.
 

RAGNARØKR

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I would say that the aisle is a very definite bottleneck. It may not be the only one, but it definitely is a problem.
There is, by definition, only one bottleneck. When that is dealt with the next one will show up. One possible cause is people taking cases off the luggage shelves but it cannot be said for certain until a careful study has been done. This is one of a number of aspects of rolling stock design that needs a thorough investigation but it is not happenning. A false economy when orders of several £billion are being placed.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---
Trains with outside toilets, for Northeners? :lol:
Between the vestibule and the end of the vehicle as in a class 158, etc.:roll:
 
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jimm

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RAGNARØKR;1292425 said:
The key here is to ask "where is the bottleneck"? Do you actually know? I would be surprised if the speed of moving down the aisle is a bottleneck in any vehicle with 2+2 seating. Mark 3 stock is not particularly easy to get on and off, due to the narrow step board. That is probably the bottleneck. Or it may be the existence of a pinch point inside the train, possibly between the vestibule and saloon. To establish the truth of the matter would require the kind of operational research project that was developed during WW2, covering issues such as the machine-man interface. Do you know of any study in relation to the mark 3 problem we are discussing?

Operational research and ergonometrics remained as widespread part of the design process until the late 1950s and then seem to have gone out of use in Britain, as stock such as the class 313 would never have been put into service in the form that it originally appeared. In Scandinavia, the discipline has developed, which is one reason why Scandinavian design is more generally satisfactory: design of the man-machine interface is a big subject at Chalmers Technical College, Gothenburg.

As regards the toilets, there is no necessity to locate them between the entrance vestibule and the saloon. They can go outside, as in the class 158, or in the centre of the vehicle, not an option if wheelchair access is required but a good position from a number of points of view especially in relation to issues like disposal of sewage and positioning of the retention tank.

1/3:2/3 has definite disadvantages from a structural point of view if the bodyshell is a monocoque. It requires large apertures in the bodyshell precisely where it is undesirable to have them. It also limits the options for seating layouts as the vehicle is divided into three compartments, two of them less than 4 metres in length.
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You aren't reading, are you? I was referring to establishing loading and unloading speeds as a basis for comparison of the two configurations. And 20 metre vehicle stock is still being ordered for some routes, is it not?

How are you getting on with those pie charts showing all the different costs associated with railway operation? It would be really useful to have that information and you seem to have the patience needed to ferret out the information.

The entire aisle in a Mk3 is a bottleneck, getting on and getting off - it's only got room for one person to move along.

You complain about 1/3 2/3 doors - in fact, is there anything on British trains that isn't entirely wrong because you seem to have pretty much worked your way through everything on the rails here moaning about it - but these have wide vestibules and short aisles and load and unload a whole lot faster. If someone stops about three rows of seats into a Mk3 and starts putting up their bag/taking off their coat without taking any notice off all the people behind, that causes a bottleneck.

So Mk3 stepboards are too narrow - well at least they don't involve clambering up and down steps like so much of the rolling stock in Scandinavia and other places across Europe. Not exactly the height of design perfection and a first-rate bottleneck, I would say.

As for the position of the toilets, have you forgotten where they are going on 26m IEP coaches that you have previously told us are another example of terrible British train design? That's right, in the end corners, beyond the doors.
 

Chris125

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Essentially, bi-mode sets are on order because we won't have fully wired all the IC routes by the time DDA compliance is mandatory. Making HST trailers compliant will be prohibitively expensive, so new bi-modes have been ordered. (Or, at least that's my understanding)

I don't recall DDA ever being cited as a specific issue, if anything it's extending the life of the power cars that's the major expense - its also worth remembering that IEP will not be replacing HST's on West Country services anyway.

Chris
 

RAGNARØKR

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I don't recall DDA ever being cited as a specific issue, if anything it's extending the life of the power cars that's the major expense - its also worth remembering that IEP will not be replacing HST's on West Country services anyway.

Chris
DDA compliance is an issue with the HSTs. But it would not require the adaptation of every single vehicle to make the trains wheelchair accessible.
 

Lewisham2221

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RAGNARØKR;1293671 said:
DDA compliance is an issue with the HSTs. But it would not require the adaptation of every single vehicle to make the trains wheelchair accessible.

But it could require the adaptation of every single vehicle to make them DDA compliant...
 

RAGNARØKR

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The entire aisle in a Mk3 is a bottleneck, getting on and getting off - it's only got room for one person to move along.

You complain about 1/3 2/3 doors - in fact, is there anything on British trains that isn't entirely wrong because you seem to have pretty much worked your way through everything on the rails here moaning about it - but these have wide vestibules and short aisles and load and unload a whole lot faster. If someone stops about three rows of seats into a Mk3 and starts putting up their bag/taking off their coat without taking any notice off all the people behind, that causes a bottleneck.

So Mk3 stepboards are too narrow - well at least they don't involve clambering up and down steps like so much of the rolling stock in Scandinavia and other places across Europe. Not exactly the height of design perfection and a first-rate bottleneck, I would say.

As for the position of the toilets, have you forgotten where they are going on 26m IEP coaches that you have previously told us are another example of terrible British train design? That's right, in the end corners, beyond the doors.
My criticism of British train design seems to be making you angry for some reason. British trains were at one time the best in Europe. Compare BR mark 1s or pre-nationalisation stock with contemporary stock anywhere else in Europe.

Modern European trains have retractable steps, platform-gap bridges, low floor centre sections, all sorts of devices and features to make them accessible. The issue on continental railways is the variety of station platform heights which have to be catered for.

Not every feature of the IEP is terrible. At £2.7 million a vehicle, there ought to be something right about them. They are just incredibly bad value for money. But putting the luggage in that part of a vehicle is a bad idea unless the intention is to provide secure lockers. As for their station dwell time performance, we shall see. The doors had to be located away from the extreme outer ends to avoid excessive stepping distances at convex platform faces. They are described as being "no worse than mark 3".

My point about the relative loading performance of the two types of vehicle configuration is that there are no types of stock where all the other characteristics are the same. An all-other-things-being equal judgement can not be made, which would separate out the effect of the one factor. It is just bad science to come an any conclusion at all, yet whole fleets of stock eg the 395 have been designed on the assumption that moving the doorways away from the ends is in itself going to shorten station dwell times.

With a single file of people at each doorway, the bottleneck on mark 3 stock is likely to be - and in the absence of solid research I would put it no stronger than that - the speed at which people can get on and off the train. Clapham Junction, East Croydon and Brighton have curved platforms which gives rise to wide gaps at convex faces. The stepboards on the class 442 stock are narrow, the only handholds are the pillars for the swing-plug doors, which are of large diameter and difficult to get hold of. So people are cautious when boarding and alighting from the train, which takes time.

Passengers on the Brighton line tend not to have much luggage unless they are travelling to or from Gatwick. On inter-city routes, when people are putting luggage on or taking it off the shelves, they will cause an obstruction. The length of the aisles makes no difference to dwell time as people are moving along inside the vehicle at the rate that people can get off the train or past the people dealing with their luggage. Thus in this situation, that is likely to be - again I will put in no more strongly than that - the pinch point.

The most recent generations of 1/3:2/3 stock eg classes 376/378 have wider doorways than earlier types and standback space as well, enabling people to go through the doorways two abreast or to pass each other with one boarding and one alighting. That will definitely speed things up at stations but at the cost of seating capacity.

If you watch people getting off class 375/377, they tend to go through in single file even though the doorways are wide enough for two (assuming the train is not so crowded that people are standing in the vestibule and causing a blockage). On unrebuilt classes 313 etc, people almost never went through the doorways two abreast.

The effects of having wide doorways at the ends, and unobstructed access to the saloons are speculation because such trains do not exist. Someone ought to find out by building a realistic mock-up and carrying out realistic loading and unloading tests. When several billions are being invested, the cost is peanuts and the information valuable. That is the sort of thing the Railway Technical Centre used to do but alas they are no more.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---
But it could require the adaptation of every single vehicle to make them DDA compliant...
What adaptations would those be? The big expensive one is wheelchair accessibility, is it not? The rest covers things like the colours of push buttons and the force required to operate them.
 

Lewisham2221

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RAGNARØKR;1293698 said:
With a single file of people at each doorway, the bottleneck on mark 3 stock is likely to be - and in the absence of solid research I would put it no stronger than that - the speed at which people can get on and off the train. Clapham Junction, East Croydon and Brighton have curved platforms which gives rise to wide gaps at convex faces. The stepboards on the class 442 stock are narrow, the only handholds are the pillars for the swing-plug doors, which are of large diameter and difficult to get hold of. So people are cautious when boarding and alighting from the train, which takes time.

Passengers on the Brighton line tend not to have much luggage unless they are travelling to or from Gatwick. On inter-city routes, when people are putting luggage on or taking it off the shelves, they will cause an obstruction. The length of the aisles makes no difference to dwell time as people are moving along inside the vehicle at the rate that people can get off the train or past the people dealing with their luggage. Thus in this situation, that is likely to be - again I will put in no more strongly than that - the pinch point.

The most recent generations of 1/3:2/3 stock eg classes 376/378 have wider doorways than earlier types and standback space as well, enabling people to go through the doorways two abreast or to pass each other with one boarding and one alighting. That will definitely speed things up at stations but at the cost of seating capacity.

Except that if you have 1/3 2/3 doors, that gives 4 flows within the carriage, as opposed to the 2 flows when using end doors. So yes, the aisle is a bottleneck on end door stock, as 1/3 2/3 doors can theoretically double the speed of boarding/alighting. There will also be a shorter distance between the seat and the doors, meaning further potential time savings.

As you confess to only using the UK rail network a handful of times a year it amazes me that you continue to ignore the arguments of people who use the network far more frequently than yourself.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---
RAGNARØKR;1293698 said:
My criticism of British train design seems to be making you angry for some reason. British trains were at one time the best in Europe. Compare BR mark 1s or pre-nationalisation stock with contemporary stock anywhere else in Europe.

Modern European trains have retractable steps, platform-gap bridges, low floor centre sections, all sorts of devices and features to make them accessible. The issue on continental railways is the variety of station platform heights which have to be catered for.

Not every feature of the IEP is terrible. At £2.7 million a vehicle, there ought to be something right about them. They are just incredibly bad value for money. But putting the luggage in that part of a vehicle is a bad idea unless the intention is to provide secure lockers. As for their station dwell time performance, we shall see. The doors had to be located away from the extreme outer ends to avoid excessive stepping distances at convex platform faces. They are described as being "no worse than mark 3".

My point about the relative loading performance of the two types of vehicle configuration is that there are no types of stock where all the other characteristics are the same. An all-other-things-being equal judgement can not be made, which would separate out the effect of the one factor. It is just bad science to come an any conclusion at all, yet whole fleets of stock eg the 395 have been designed on the assumption that moving the doorways away from the ends is in itself going to shorten station dwell times.

With a single file of people at each doorway, the bottleneck on mark 3 stock is likely to be - and in the absence of solid research I would put it no stronger than that - the speed at which people can get on and off the train. Clapham Junction, East Croydon and Brighton have curved platforms which gives rise to wide gaps at convex faces. The stepboards on the class 442 stock are narrow, the only handholds are the pillars for the swing-plug doors, which are of large diameter and difficult to get hold of. So people are cautious when boarding and alighting from the train, which takes time.

Passengers on the Brighton line tend not to have much luggage unless they are travelling to or from Gatwick. On inter-city routes, when people are putting luggage on or taking it off the shelves, they will cause an obstruction. The length of the aisles makes no difference to dwell time as people are moving along inside the vehicle at the rate that people can get off the train or past the people dealing with their luggage. Thus in this situation, that is likely to be - again I will put in no more strongly than that - the pinch point.

The most recent generations of 1/3:2/3 stock eg classes 376/378 have wider doorways than earlier types and standback space as well, enabling people to go through the doorways two abreast or to pass each other with one boarding and one alighting. That will definitely speed things up at stations but at the cost of seating capacity.

If you watch people getting off class 375/377, they tend to go through in single file even though the doorways are wide enough for two (assuming the train is not so crowded that people are standing in the vestibule and causing a blockage). On unrebuilt classes 313 etc, people almost never went through the doorways two abreast.

The effects of having wide doorways at the ends, and unobstructed access to the saloons are speculation because such trains do not exist. Someone ought to find out by building a realistic mock-up and carrying out realistic loading and unloading tests. When several billions are being invested, the cost is peanuts and the information valuable. That is the sort of thing the Railway Technical Centre used to do but alas they are no more.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---
What adaptations would those be? The big expensive one is wheelchair accessibility, is it not? The rest covers things like the colours of push buttons and the force required to operate them.

Indeed. Although, as I have stated many times elsewhere, DDA covers a lot of things. PIS, door controls, priority seating, seat design etc etc. For example, EMT HST sets would require new seating, as the fixed armrests on IC70 seats are not DDA compliant. I don't have, or particularly care about for that matter, the exact technical specifications for all current HST sets, so I'm not going to go into any further detail as to what may or may not be required.
 

tbtc

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RAGNARØKR;1293698 said:
My criticism of British train design seems to be making you angry for some reason. British trains were at one time the best in Europe

Since you keep complaining that UK trains are far too narrow (compared to the loading gauges elsewhere on the continent) I find it hard to believe that you'd ever be happy with our trains...
 

krus_aragon

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...they are too sluggish at stopping/starting to be cascaded to some "provincial" DMU routes like Birmingham - Stansted or Nottingham - Cardiff...

In their current 2+8 formation yes. But how about 2+5 or so? (Virgin Challenger anyone?)
 

RAGNARØKR

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Since you keep complaining that UK trains are far too narrow (compared to the loading gauges elsewhere on the continent) I find it hard to believe that you'd ever be happy with our trains...
I was very happy with CEPs and CIGs. Travelled in them every day for the best part of 30 years - must have spent about 15 hours a week in CEPs and CIGs. And before that, other mark 1 stock. And before that, just about everything that was ex-LMS and Southern. And before that travelled regularly in pre-grouping carriages of Midland and LNWR origin. Some of the Collett period GWR stock was on the spartan side but I couldn't fault the Churchward and Hawksworth vehicles.

The rot began to set in around 1965.

UK trains are too narrow when they are not built out to the maximum width permitted by the loading gauge ie 2.82 metres externally, or have excessively thick bodysides or excessive lower bodyside curvature or a skirting duct or if they have 2+3 seating. If the designers avoid these pitfalls, the permitted kinematic envelope does not affect the design of the trains unduly.
 

RobShipway

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RAGNARØKR;1294004 said:
I was very happy with CEPs and CIGs. Travelled in them every day for the best part of 30 years - must have spent about 15 hours a week in CEPs and CIGs. And before that, other mark 1 stock. And before that, just about everything that was ex-LMS and Southern. And before that travelled regularly in pre-grouping carriages of Midland and LNWR origin. Some of the Collett period GWR stock was on the spartan side but I couldn't fault the Churchward and Hawksworth vehicles.

The rot began to set in around 1965.

Being someone that grew up during the 1970's/1980's in Sussex, there wehere times when I travelled on the Brighton - London line or up from Newhaven Town to Lewes on the mark 1 stock at the time and I can safely say that it was more comfortable to travel those distances by coaches at the time, then by train. The only reason for taking the train was that it was quicker.

You find that since the arrival of new stock, in teh likes of the Class 377, 450, 444 etc in the Southern area of the network that passenger loadings have improved even though since the MK1 trains have gone the price of train fares has gone up. Why do you think this is?
 

RAGNARØKR

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Except that if you have 1/3 2/3 doors, that gives 4 flows within the carriage, as opposed to the 2 flows when using end doors. So yes, the aisle is a bottleneck on end door stock, as 1/3 2/3 doors can theoretically double the speed of boarding/alighting. There will also be a shorter distance between the seat and the doors, meaning further potential time savings.

As you confess to only using the UK rail network a handful of times a year it amazes me that you continue to ignore the arguments of people who use the network far more frequently than yourself.
If this is as you say, then the width of the doors is the bottleneck, not the aisle. The point about 1/3 and 2/3 in this situation is not the length of the aisles but that people are converging on the vestibule from two directions, and if the doorways are wide enough ie minimum 1.5 metres clear opening plus standback space, then people will pass through each of the doorways in two files, which is the same as having four single doors. Having wider doorways in an end door configuration would not help completely although larger end vestibules would act as a holding area.

There is also the issue with older stock such as class 313 that the doorways of the stock when built were not wide enough in practice to get people to pass through the opening two abreast, and my observations with stock such as class 377 suggests much the same thing even though these doorways are wider. Classes 376 and 378 do not have draught screens close to the doorways so the movement through the door openings is freer.

But none of these design problems would have arisen if the design principles previously embodied in London underground trains had been followed.

1/3:2/3 is clearly a effective solution on routes like London Overground and other suburban services operated by Networkers, Desiros and related designs. But for longer distance routes such as those on which class 185 are running, an end-door design would serve if attention was paid to the issues I mentioned earlier, and the 158 class would not be so problematic where station dwell times are an issue.

You know nothing about me, my travelling habits or knowledge of the UK railway system, so your comments in that regard are irrelevant. Nor, really are your observations, or mine, for that matter, since all will be based on limited and particular experience. All I have done and all we can do is to flag up some points which could usefully be followed up by proper controlled research through the use of mock-ups for loading trials. Properly conducted, interpreted and applied, it would considerably improve the performance of the system and as such, would be a valuable investment. There are too many unsubstantiated assertions being made and then translated into vehicle designs, hence the need for solid research. For example, another question worth asking is this. Some stations on London Overground have level boarding with extra high platforms eg Dalston Junction, whereas others have a large step distance, eg Willesden Junction High Level. What is the effect of this difference on station dwell time? From such information it is possible to put a cost on this and work out how much it is worth spending to address the problem.
 
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Goatboy

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But the track access charges for the 2+5 would be more than for the Voyager.

Would it be more than 2 Voyagers as I'd imagine 5-6 HST coaches must be almost at the level of capacity provided by 2 220's?
 

HSTEd

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Would it be more than 2 Voyagers as I'd imagine 5-6 HST coaches must be almost at the level of capacity provided by 2 220's?

The 220 has 200 seats in its current configuration, that makes it the match of something on order of 3 Mark 3 vehicles (probably 3 and a half once you include First Class)

5 Mark 3s is not going to have 400 seats unless you really pack them in with a single class configuration.
 

The Planner

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But the track access charges for the 2+5 would be more than for the Voyager.

I wasn't answering that one, that is for the bean counters to decide if it is viable. I was just answering the question that a 2+5 would keep up with the Voyager if people are hell bent on keeping HSTs in some form.
 

The Ham

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The 220 has 200 seats in its current configuration, that makes it the match of something on order of 3 Mark 3 vehicles (probably 3 and a half once you include First Class)

5 Mark 3s is not going to have 400 seats unless you really pack them in with a single class configuration.

From:http://www.railforums.co.uk/showthread.php?t=73196

Grand Central HST (2+5): 221 standard class, 48 first class (269 total)
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---
I wasn't answering that one, that is for the bean counters to decide if it is viable. I was just answering the question that a 2+5 would keep up with the Voyager if people are hell bent on keeping HSTs in some form.

Fair enough.

Whilst I still have my bean counter hat on, a 2+5 IC125 would cost 89.01 ppm whilst a 7 coach Meridian would cost 73.85 ppm, and although the trains would be of the same length the Meridian would have more capacity. Meaning that the IC125 would have to be about £100/day cheaper to lease than the Meridian (assuming about 660 miles a day travelled).
 

AndyLandy

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But the track access charges for the 2+5 would be more than for the Voyager.

From the 2009/10 price list:

4-car 220, 34.88p/mile*
5-car 221, 60.45p/mile*
2+5 HST, 89.01p/mile*

So yes, 2+5 HSTs are expensive.

Conversely, A 2+8 HST costs 108.6p/mile*. The lion's share of track access charges for HSTs come from the power cars, so you really need to be looking at full-length sets to be getting value for money from them.

*assuming my maths is right!
 

D365

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If 1+5 sets are possible - I've heard they are - would the trade-off in performance be worth the reduced cost?
 

JamesRowden

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If 1+5 sets are possible - I've heard they are - would the trade-off in performance be worth the reduced cost?

Assuming that the maximum output power of a power car is constant, the top speed would reduce by a factor of the cube root of two and so be 99 mph instead of 125 mph.
 

AndyLandy

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If 1+5 sets are possible - I've heard they are - would the trade-off in performance be worth the reduced cost?

I imagine they'd be pretty slow off the mark. One assumes that a 1+4 set would be roughly equivalent to a 2+8 set for performance, so if you stretch that to 1+5, you'll be slower at accelerating. Don't forget you'd also need to factor in a controlling trailer on the other end of the formation, which will provide additional weight that needs to be hauled.
 

Yew

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Assuming that the maximum output power of a power car is constant, the top speed would reduce by a factor of the cube root of two and so be 99 mph instead of 125 mph.

I'm not sure if thats right, but if it was, could that formation be useful for XC's 170 routes? I imagine the accelerations would be similar. I suppose it would depend on if it made financial sense to turn some trailer cars into driving traillers?
 

JamesRowden

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DAB_Move said:
If 1+5 sets are possible - I've heard they are - would the trade-off in performance be worth the reduced cost?

JamesRowden said:
Assuming that the maximum output power of a power car is constant, the top speed would reduce by a factor of the cube root of two and so be 99 mph instead of 125 mph.

I'm not sure if thats right, but if it was, could that formation be useful for XC's 170 routes? I imagine the accelerations would be similar. I suppose it would depend on if it made financial sense to turn some trailer cars into driving traillers?

I forgot to state that I was asuming that the aerodynamics of the single power car train are same as the present two power car format (would require a DVT with similar aerodynamics [a power car with the engine/transmision systems extracted?]).

V^3 = W / D

V = top speed
W = power
D = aerodynamic drag coefficient
 

ainsworth74

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My understanding is that HST power cars are capable of 125mph by themselves. But, the time taken to get there is greater if there is only one in the formation.
 

Rich McLean

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My understanding is that HST power cars are capable of 125mph by themselves. But, the time taken to get there is greater if there is only one in the formation.


Also that is evident, when you have notches taped out on the powercars, as was very evident in FGW Land a few years back not long after the MTU's went in. From Swindon on the up you would be lucky to get over 110mph by Didcot Parkway
 
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