Belfast Town Hall...and its flag

[Eagle]

That's about as serious as an independent Yorkshire!

I meant in regards to flags flying. You see far more Texan flags than US ones.

 

[DarloRich]

Yes, sorry about that, no offence!

no problem - i missed the off!

I meant in regards to flags flying. You see far more Texan flags than US ones.

You see quite a lot of Yorkshire flags about as well! Anyway i am from County Durham, which is better than Yorkshire, just!

 

[Greenback]

I meant in regards to flags flying. You see far more Texan flags than US ones.

Oh right, sorry! I must confess to never having been to Texas, or knowing what a Texas flag looks like, all I have ever seen in the US are the stars and stripes!

 

[Xenophon PCDGS]

You see quite a lot of Yorkshire flags about as well! Anyway i am from County Durham, which is better than Yorkshire, just!

We saw quite a few black and white Cornish flags flying in the southern part of that area when we were on holiday there, based at Falmouth.
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I think you mean the Peoples Democratic Republic of Yorkshire!

I remember the far-off days when the "Supreme Soviet Socialist Republic of South Yorkshire" was a name that was often bandied around.

 

[Xenophon PCDGS]

I see that 2013 has started with the matter of the flag at Belfast Town Hall being the reason for the third consecutive night's unrest and petrol bombs being thrown at the Police. A report on Radio 4 this morning said that 13 people, including an 11 year old and a 13 year old, were brought before a special sitting of the Court that was held in response to the current situation.

 

[Greenback]

I wonder how many of the trouble makers have seized on the issue as an excuse for a bit of 'fun', rather like the London riots in 2011?

 

[mac]

This might be a simple way of looking at it but if they had just removed the flag without saying so would anyone have noticed.

 

[Johnuk123]

This might be a simple way of looking at it but if they had just removed the flag without saying so would anyone have noticed.

In N.I. things are a bit different to here to say the least, it would have been noticed within minutes.

 

[WestCoast]

They should fly the EU flag there......!

 

[Xenophon PCDGS]

Perhaps all being members of the EC is not good enough for some people, even though Britain, Eire and the Netherlands (House of Orange) are all members of this organisation.

 

[CallySleeper]

Meanwhile, the flag has returned today (for one day only!)

 

[Xenophon PCDGS]

Meanwhile, the flag has returned today (for one day only!)

......To celebrate the birthday of the Duchess of Cambridge.

 

[Trog]

How about a compromise where a list of special events is drawn up so the flag is flown for a number of days proportional to the Unionist vote for that area?

Hopefully better than a local Police Station I noticed which flew the Union Flag upside down for several weeks.

 

[Xenophon PCDGS]

Twenty-nine police officers have been injured as a result of Saturday night's "disturbances". What an image to portray to countries who may be considering bringing investment into Northern Ireland who see a democratically reached decision in Belfast local government being the subject of such attitudes that seem to say...
"We will accept majority decisions in a democracy, but only if our faction are right all the time and the decision is in our favour."

 

[Johnuk123]

Northern Ireland is a basket case of a place totally riddled with hate, it's a place I have been but would never go again.

The hate the 2 factions have for each other is hundreds of years old and will NEVER EVER be solved. Parents delight in bringing up children full of venom who are just keeping the whole sorry show going.

The violence mainly by children has nothing to do with flags it's just an excuse for a bit of sectarianism orchestrated by the local war-lords.

When the first 10 year old gets run over by a landrover we'll have the usual suspects on the t.v. crying how brutal the police are.

 

[MidnightFlyer]

I wouldn't say the whole place is riddled with it, in rural areas no-one's bothered about each other's religion, Catholics and Protestants live happily side by side. Only in Belfast, Londonderry and Lurgan and a couple of others places is it an issue. In complete contrast to Johnuk123, I adore NI and wouldn't mind living there, it's a brilliant country.

 

[Xenophon PCDGS]

I wouldn't say the whole place is riddled with it, in rural areas no-one's bothered about each other's religion, Catholics and Protestants live happily side by side. Only in Belfast, Londonderry and Lurgan and a couple of others places is it an issue. In complete contrast to Johnuk123, I adore NI and wouldn't mind living there, it's a brilliant country.

The problem in Belfast Town Hall seems to be over the compromise that was put forward by the Alliance Party. This was to adopt the officially-recognised flag-flying days policy set out by the College of Arms that comes under the guidance requested by the Department of Culture, Media and Sport. These guidelines cover the all the dates recommended of the flying of the Union flag by all local authorities.

So, to use the logic of those who wish to show their allegiance to the British Crown, why do they then feel that such a ruling should not apply to them. You just cannot have it both ways.

 

[ReverendFozz]

Northern Ireland is a basket case of a place totally riddled with hate, it's a place I have been but would never go again.

The hate the 2 factions have for each other is hundreds of years old and will NEVER EVER be solved. Parents delight in bringing up children full of venom who are just keeping the whole sorry show going.

The violence mainly by children has nothing to do with flags it's just an excuse for a bit of sectarianism orchestrated by the local war-lords.

When the first 10 year old gets run over by a landrover we'll have the usual suspects on the t.v. crying how brutal the police are.

I think thats a bit harsh, but I do know plenty people with a similar opinion to you.

I have been to Belfast many times, and while I have met one or two unsavoury characters, I have found the majority of people to be friendly and very hospitable, I have met people from both sides of Belfast who just want to live in peace.

I have family there, my aunt is N.Irish, the loveliest warmest person you could meet, never engaged with either side, my uncle was serving soldier in Germany when they met,

One thing I do agree with is that the latest riots has gone beyond what flag flies, kids are rioting for rioting sake. A newsreader last night commented something like 'looking at the age of people rioting, best part of them were not even born when the Good Friday Agreement was signed'.

I firmly believe Northern Irish attitudes can be changed, not today, tomorrow or next week, but within a few generations, look at the last 14-15 years, Northern Ireland has come on so well, it has been relatively quiet considering it had been going virtually for the previous 25-30 years before that, he was also deployed to N.I before he left the Army and settled near Belfast.

I would always highly recommend the place to visit.

My personal opinion is, everyone should get together to talk about the issue and should start looking to design a new flag for Northern Ireland, the Red Hand flag is probably not the answer, but surely it cant be too hard to design a new flag that represents both of communities, whether it would work though is a different matter

 

[ReverendFozz]

What effect, if any, would these latest riots have on the Peace Process as a whole, from what little I know, didn't something like this happen 40 years ago when Unionists brought the Stormont Government at the time down, so is there much of a chance of the Assembly collapsing if it continues...

I really hope we dont go back to, as Gerry Adams described, the bad old days, I firmly believe the absolute majority wants peace, it really is shameful to see this, knowing how far they have come since The Good Friday Agreement...I want to know what is the real agenda of loyalists, this has become more than the flag and it just seems to me, as if, there is an agenda we dont know about being played out here.

Everybody should get round a table and thrash out a deal over this, as I have suggested think about introducing a United Flag for Northern Ireland, not the Red Hand Banner or Union Jack or Irish Tricolour

 

[citybus]

I want to know what is the real agenda of loyalists, this has become more than the flag and it just seems to me, as if, there is an agenda we dont know about being played out here.

A lot of the rioters don't have an agenda as such, it's just seen as a bit of fun. As for the UVF, they are upset over upcoming supergrass trials which might see loads of their senior members being locked up. By organising violence they are hoping to convince the police to back down from this. They used the same tactics in the same area last year, which was round one of the supergrass trials. This is in anticipation of round two.

But the whole thing doesn't make that much sense, but then I suppose it's common in war for the victims to not understand the thinking behind violent acts.

 

[Xenophon PCDGS]

How about the European Monarchies deciding to have another merry-go-round and see whose turn it is to rule Great Britain. The Germans have had a good run for their money, so with Northern Ireland in mind and a section of their population to be considered, why not give the Dutch Royal Family another go. I am sure that the current Queen Elizabeth II will be pleased to give up after a good innings in charge and to spend all her spare time with Prince Philip and a telephone call to HRH Prince Willem-Alexander Claus George Ferdinand, Prince of the Netherlands, to take over from her, which will have the added benefit of preventing the tree-talking Prince Charles (and Audrey from Coronation Street) from having a say in the matter.

Perhaps the new monarch could pay his first state visit to Northern Ireland to thank a certain section of the population for their loyalty to the House of Oranje-Nassau, that they have shown since 1690.

 

[Anon Mouse]

I am not going to respond to this thread in any detail as I will be banned.

My view is that the Union Flag should fly above all public buildings in The United Kingdom of Great Britain and Northern Ireland.

I agree dispite having some strong opinions leaning towards those with the opposite of you

I also find it unusual (forgive me if I'm wrong) that all of this bother was caused by the council making a decision that the Nationalists didn't ask for? The Union flag has flown for years so why force through a decision that was obviously going to cause resentment on both sides. Do certain people in positions of power in Northern Ireland want to go back to the bad old days?

Northern Ireland is part of the United Kingdom so it would be normal to fly the flag of the UK regardless of history, past wrongs and current situation.

I'm gonna try to avoid any further comments as I suspect this thread is gonna turn into a bit of an argument!

peace to all and in the words of Jack Nicolson in Mars Attacks......"can we all just get along"

 

[Bungle73]

How can so many people cause so much mayhem over whether a flag is flown or not? :roll:

I am not going to respond to this thread in any detail as I will be banned.

My view is that the Union Flag should fly above all public buildings in The United Kingdom of Great Britain and Northern Ireland.

What for? This isn't America. TBH I find it a bit odd, and a little bit creepy, the way they display their flag anywhere and everywhere. It's even put up in classrooms.

 

[ReverendFozz]

How can so many people cause so much mayhem over whether a flag is flown or not? :roll:



What for? This isn't America. TBH I find it a bit odd, and a little bit creepy, the way they display their flag anywhere and everywhere. It's even put up in classrooms.

Was Americans ultra patriotic before 9/11, it seemed to me like they became more ultra patriotic following September 11.

Now if the Northern Ireland flags issue is not resolved, then I believe displaying flags should be banned all together and then get round the table and discuss possible compromises...

1. Fly no flags at all
2. Fly the Union Jack, Irish Tricolour and Ulster Banner
3. Work towards creating a new flag, one that represents Northern Ireland with both communities having input on what that flag should be

Option 2 is a compromise that should be a very last resort, I mean why should a Tricolour fly outside a UK town hall, but if it brought an end the rioting then so be it My personal opinion is sit down and create a new flag, a flag for the 6 counties.

If rioting like this keeps going on, what will happen with the Peace Process, what is the chance of it breaking it down, in the past it seems to have been a generational thing, in that civil disorder every 1 or 2 generations i.e. the 1910's through the 20's then round about WW2, the Border Campaign and 1969 through to the Good Friday Agreement, although those were IRA and Republican actions...When I said before about Loyalist agendas, are the hardliners simply trying to whip up trouble and take everybody with them back to the bad old days...Didnt something like this happen in 1974 when Unionists brought the Stormont government down

This problem stopped being about a flag the moment the first petrol bomb was thrown at police, the country hae come a long way since 1997 and it would be devaststing to see the country descend back into a civil war

 

[MidnightFlyer]

I also find it unusual (forgive me if I'm wrong) that all of this bother was caused by the council making a decision that the Nationalists didn't ask for? The Union flag has flown for years so why force through a decision that was obviously going to cause resentment on both sides. Do certain people in positions of power in Northern Ireland want to go back to the bad old days?

Northern Ireland is part of the United Kingdom so it would be normal to fly the flag of the UK regardless of history, past wrongs and current situation.

My apologies if I'm wrong, but I believe your ideologies would see the monarchy lined up and executed, am I correct?

I have to agree though, you'd think by now they'd realise that it's best to let sleeping dogs lie, especially in a place where the last 15 years have been the most peaceful of the last century. I've said it before, and I'll say it again, if the council didn't see this coming then they are either blind or just damn fools. I would actually like to know just how many even hardcore Nationalists had a problem with it being flown, I suspect the majority of the people on the ground either would want to keep it or were indifferent, but would prefer to keep the status quo to stop exactly this happening. I know everyone says 'That's democracy, it was a vote etc', however I do wonder at times if it is best just to disregard that (or what may be deemed to be 'correct'), in order to maintain peace on the ground and not set the country back 15 years of almost unimaginable (at one time) peace.

 

[ReverendFozz]

I also find it unusual (forgive me if I'm wrong) that all of this bother was caused by the council making a decision that the Nationalists didn't ask for? The Union flag has flown for years so why force through a decision that was obviously going to cause resentment on both sides. Do certain people in positions of power in Northern Ireland want to go back to the bad old days?

The answer to that last sentence is simply, yes, some want to go back to the dark days, mainly dissident replublicans, how much influence they have in communities is debatable, but all the opinion point towards a majority in wanting to keep peace, it has come too far for it all to fall down now

 

[Anon Mouse]

My apologies if I'm wrong, but I believe your ideologies would see the monarchy lined up and executed, am I correct?

No comment, don't want to start that debate again!

I have to agree though, you'd think by now they'd realise that it's best to let sleeping dogs lie, especially in a place where the last 15 years have been the most peaceful of the last century. I've said it before, and I'll say it again, if the council didn't see this coming then they are either blind or just damn fools. I would actually like to know just how many even hardcore Nationalists had a problem with it being flown, I suspect the majority of the people on the ground either would want to keep it or were indifferent, but would prefer to keep the status quo to stop exactly this happening. I know everyone says 'That's democracy, it was a vote etc', however I do wonder at times if it is best just to disregard that (or what may be deemed to be 'correct'), in order to maintain peace on the ground and not set the country back 15 years of almost unimaginable (at one time) peace.

Sometimes democratic choice causes more problems than it solves or certain foolish/unadvisable decisions or can of worms opening. I think the flag issuie was a can of worms that certainly should not have been opened
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The answer to that last sentence is simply, yes, some want to go back to the dark days, mainly dissident replublicans, how much influence they have in communities is debatable, but all the opinion point towards a majority in wanting to keep peace, it has come too far for it all to fall down now

Those are the dangerous dinosaurs (on both sides) that should be well and truly extinct, same goes for the chavs and thugs draped in our flag throwing rocks and petrol bombs around their communities. Its very sad that the peace process seems to be in threat by the type of people that the majority have rejected.

 

[Xenophon PCDGS]

I know everyone says 'That's democracy, it was a vote etc', however I do wonder at times if it is best just to disregard that (or what may be deemed to be 'correct'), in order to maintain peace on the ground and not set the country back 15 years of almost unimaginable (at one time) peace.

So to follow this logic, if democracy is not to be upheld in just one part of the country to which they claim allegiance, what particular form of society is to be expected to replace it? Should Greater Manchester decide that certain laws of the land covering Pension Reforms will not be applicable in that area? Should the Socialist Republic of South Yorkshire decide not to abide by the rules governing Health Service reform? Should the area in the Pendle region still be allowed to have retained their desire to execute the odd witch or two in those far-off days ?

We all have heard what is currently taking place in many regions of the world where democracy is under threat from Islamist militants espousing fundamentalist conservative Wahabi versions of their beliefs.

Perhaps the South, after the American Civil War should have been allowed to retain their ideal of slavery, so as not to offend the Southern plantation owners who had used this method of staffing their establishments for very many years ?

Just a few idle thoughts...

 

[ReverendFozz]

It is not about a flag anymore...

Infact I firmly believe the younger ones do not actually know what they are supposedly fighting for, going by news footage and what I have read online, most of the rioters weren't even born when Good Friday was signed or were too young to have any memory of it.

While it seems upto now the Nationalists are not retaliating to attacks on there homes around the Short Strand, they should not tolerate it, but I dread to think what might happen if the Nationalists take to the streets

 

[Xenophon PCDGS]

Monday night saw the return of the quaint local tradtion of "Hi-jack a bus"...:roll: