Autumn Statement on rail infrastructure spending?

[MidlandMainlie]

Any ideas if George Osborne is going to announce any new spending on rail infrastructure tomorrow? If so then what would members like to see, new stations, more electrification beyond what has already been announced in CP5/6 etc…

 

[Goatboy]

I hope he announces lots of spending on even more superultrafast brand new trains whilst completely ignoring the rest of the network and increasing fares to pay for it all.

Shiney stuff is good.

 

[YorkshireBear]

I hope he announces lots of spending on even more superultrafast brand new trains whilst completely ignoring the rest of the network and increasing fares to pay for it all.

Shiney stuff is good.

He isnt going to announce in the autumn statement, speed improvements in the horbury junction area is he? Yet that has been announced, just seperately.

Lots of small level improvements have been approved in autumn statements just have to look through the pages not listen to his words.

 

[cle]

Probably re-annoucing plenty which is already in the public domain - or that he's mentioned at beforehand.

 

[kylemore]

£1Billion for extension of Northern Line to Battersea, LU I know but still a fairly big Rail Investment announcement.

 

[Ferret]

Probably re-annoucing plenty which is already in the public domain - or that he's mentioned at beforehand.

Or has been leaked to the press beforehand.....!

Well, at least he caped the fuel duty increase. Caps on benefit increases, cut in corporation tax to bolster growth - one of those could have been better, could have been worse Autumn Statements. Labour might wish to let Ed Miliband produce the response to the budget next year though - Balls' speech today was stumbling, nervy and incoherent! Made his arguments, some of which had merit, very difficult to follow.

 

[LNW-GW Joint]

HS2 route to Manchester/Leeds to be announced in "the New Year".

 

[DarloRich]

I see the Baron Osborne thought better (once again) of punishing his chums in the city and in the boardrooms who got us into this mess. Sorry my mistake the bank levy has been increased to 0.130% next year! Don’t forget, we are all in it together! :roll:

Good to see the funding for the A1 improvements to be finished and the Northern Line extended – shame the developers aren’t footing the bill anymore on this one anymore

 

[142094]

Although the money is welcome for the A1, Newcastle University published a report stating that the Western Bypass was unsuitable even before it had opened in 1990. Fast forward 22 years...

 

[Deerfold]

Or has been leaked to the press beforehand.....!

Well, at least he caped the fuel duty increase.

Assuming you mean capped, he's made it more efficient financially for people to travel by car rather than train.

 

[Ferret]

Assuming you mean capped, he's made it more efficient financially for people to travel by car rather than train.

But not practical for some! Fuel duty increases hurt the economy too. I'm as pro-rail as the next person (it's in my interests after all given what I do for a living!) but I see no benefits anywhere in increasing fuel duty.

 

[atomicdanny]

HS2 route to Manchester/Leeds to be announced in "the New Year".

I think there would be more chance of "all projects are cancelled" than that though. (in my opinion)

 

[IanXC]

Scottish Caledonian Sleeper Service refurbishment: Scottish Government are taking the refurbishment forward having committed £80 million to the programme, bringing the total investment to £130 million (not final). The Caledonian Sleeper franchise specification – including the SG’s requirements for renewed and/or refurbished rolling stock – will be published in early 2013. Upgrades to the network infrastructure were included in the Scottish ministers’ High Level Output Specification (HLOS) published in June 2012 for delivery over the period 2014-2019

http://cdn.hm-treasury.gov.uk/national_infrastructure_plan_051212.pdf

Heres a little gem buried on todays announcements - not sure we have seen confirmation of a separate franchise, or of the Scottish Government committing funding for new rolling stock.

 

[ainsworth74]

We knew that a separate franchise was definitely going ahead but not that the Scottish Government had stumped up an extra £30m on top of the £50m they were already spending on refurbishing/getting new stock (still not convinced it's enough for a new fleet without cutting the number of vehicles used or only replacing some).

 

[DynamicSpirit]

But not practical for some! Fuel duty increases hurt the economy too. I'm as pro-rail as the next person (it's in my interests after all given what I do for a living!) but I see no benefits anywhere in increasing fuel duty.

Fare increases hurt the economy too. Fuel duty frozen, but fares still going up. If you have to put up one of the other then obviously it's going to be unpleasant for someone, and equally obviously it would be nicest if neither of them went up. But if you are financially constrained to put one of them up, and you care about quality of life and sustainability I think you'd opt to freeze rail fares. To me, George Osborne's choice speaks volumes about his lack of concern about the environment.
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http://cdn.hm-treasury.gov.uk/national_infrastructure_plan_051212.pdf

And slightly off-topic, but also telling about George Osborne's priorities: From this link:

invest £378 million to upgrade key sections of the A1 (Lobley Hill and Leeming to Barton) in the North East bringing the route from the M25 to Newcastle up to motorway standard;
(...snip...)
make a £42 million investment in the Sustainable Transport Fund in cycling infrastructure, including cycling safety.

In other words, the additional spending includes 9 times as much money for one single road scheme then is announced for improving conditions for cyclists across the *entire country*. Sickeningly bad priorities

 

[AndrewP]

Fare increases hurt the economy too. Fuel duty frozen, but fares still going up. If you have to put up one of the other then obviously it's going to be unpleasant for someone, and equally obviously it would be nicest if neither of them went up. But if you are financially constrained to put one of them up, and you care about quality of life and sustainability I think you'd opt to freeze rail fares. To me, George Osborne's choice speaks volumes about his lack of concern about the environment.
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And slightly off-topic, but also telling about George Osborne's priorities: From this link:



In other words, the additional spending includes 9 times as much money for one single road scheme then is announced for improving conditions for cyclists across the *entire country*. Sickeningly bad priorities

Couple of thoughts on this.

1. If rail use increases at peak times then where will all the passengers go?
2. Surely reducing road congestion also reduces emissions (in line with the current carbon obsession rather than whole life environmental impact)
3. If cyclists want more then they should pay road tax - they currently receive subsidy
4. If sustainability is important walking is more sustainable than cycling so should cycle paths be converted into footpaths?

I am being deliberately provocative at a narrow post.

Every form of transport has its place including car and cycle but there needs to be an integrated answer as people will continue to use whatever is easiest for them - its human nature.

It is also a fact that most cycle improvements are low cost relative to road or rail construction and precious little can be done to address the biggest problem - in urban areas where cycling is most effective streets are simply too narrow to accommodate segregated cycle space and buses

 

[Philip Elliott]

3. If cyclists want more then they should pay road tax - they currently receive subsidy

Most adult cyclists do pay for the roads - it is called council tax...

 

[Nick W]

2. Surely reducing road congestion also reduces emissions (in line with the current carbon obsession rather than whole life environmental impact)

But building new roads simply diverts existing traffic and encourages more people to drive.

There's also Braess's paradox.

3. If cyclists want more then they should pay road tax - they currently receive subsidy

Completely nonsense - every mile cycled saves the Government money, and nets benefits to society of around 25p per mile.

http://www.sustrans.org.uk/assets/files/International/Norway%20cost-benfit%20analysis.pdf is one example of such a study.

But should you wish to propose such a tax, I'd be more than delighted to receive a £2 rebate per day.

4. If sustainability is important walking is more sustainable than cycling so should cycle paths be converted into footpaths?

I'm not sure I could sustain a 3 hour walk each day.

 

[Eagle]

But building new roads simply diverts existing traffic and encourages more people to drive.

There's also Braess's paradox.

Point of technicality. It's not building a new road, it's improving an existing one.

 

[Cherry_Picker]

And one which is long overdue.

 

[Eagle]

And one which is long overdue.

One which was cancelled just two years ago by Osborne himself. :P

Nice to know that his spending cuts are reversible. Can we have the A14 Ellington–Fen Ditton back please too?

 

[D365]

One which was cancelled just two years ago by Osborne himself. :P

Nice to know that his spending cuts are reversible. Can we have the A14 Ellington–Fen Ditton back please too?

Not as a toll, the rat-running is going to be awful... Won't help especially if the infamous, soon-to-be 'strengthened' Huntingdon viaduct is retained.

 

[AndrewP]

Most adult cyclists do pay for the roads - it is called council tax...

So do motorists - are you therefore advocating the end of car tax. Great idea I support you wholeheartedly.
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What I am trying to do here is highlight that everything is complex and not black and white. We need the right balance.

I am not anti-cyclist* at all and feel the provision for them is terrible - a bit of paint does not make a proper cycle lane.





* Apart from those who go through red lights and cycle on pavements who are scum (just like drivers who do the same).

 

[The Ham]

3. If cyclists want more then they should pay road tax - they currently receive subsidy

OK, cyclists should pay the same road tax as electric cars, how does that sound?

 

[tbtc]

I see the Baron Osborne thought better (once again) of punishing his chums in the city and in the boardrooms who got us into this mess. Sorry my mistake the bank levy has been increased to 0.130% next year! Don’t forget, we are all in it together! :roll:

AIUI the bank levy has only gone up to cancel the effect of the Corporation Tax cut (so that the tax position on banks is unchanged).

No news about the A1 north of Newcastle, which sees a lot more accidents/ fatalities than the dual carriageway sections south of Newcastle.

 

[Nick W]

Point of technicality. It's not building a new road, it's improving an existing one.

That has a similar effect - it's better to have two equally good roads, than a good road and a better road. In the latter's circumstance, cars will switch to the better road until it's as bad as the good road in terms of journey times. Both roads will then be slightly less congested than before, but it's then likely that the roads will fill up a little more until they're as bad as before, possibly causing people to stop using public transport, or all the connecting roads will be even more congested than before, resulting in no overall journey time improvement.

So do motorists - are you therefore advocating the end of car tax. Great idea I support you wholeheartedly.

I totally agree with you - we should have had road charging a long time ago instead!

It's unfair that someone who drives though London (excluding the congestion charge zone) pays the same amount than someone who lives 5 miles from anyone else.

OK, cyclists should pay the same road tax as electric cars, how does that sound?

Ridiculous - the damage to the road and risk to other roads users is higher than cycling. (For the benefit of not contradicting with my last statement - if road tax is abolished in favour of road charging - the fee should be between that of a bicycle (free/subsidised) and the cost of a oil powered car.)
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Nice to know that his spending cuts are reversible. Can we have the A14 Ellington–Fen Ditton back please too?

That's a good scheme - it's crazy that a trunk road goes so close to a busy shopping street (even if raised on a concrete viaduct). However much of the traffic is caused by lack of public transport. My house-mates last year often had to drive/catch a lift to get from Cambridge to Huntingdon. The guided busway hasn't helped.

 

[Yew]

Thoughts on the Caledonian sleeper investment? I'm guessing a Big refurb of the MK3 stock, with the Mk2's replaced by something new or MK3 based. Maybe even a DVT so a loco isnt needed to pull it into euston?

 

[tbtc]

Thoughts on the Caledonian sleeper investment? I'm guessing a Big refurb of the MK3 stock, with the Mk2's replaced by something new or MK3 based. Maybe even a DVT so a loco isnt needed to pull it into euston?

Nice to get back onto the subject.

I'm sceptical of the idea of new stock for the sleeper, partly because of the sums involved and partly because it'd be a fairly small/ bespoke order. Wait and try to convert some Mk3s from redundant FGW HSTs (post-IEP)?

 

[The Ham]

Ridiculous - the damage to the road and risk to other roads users is higher than cycling.

I was being silly, the VED for an electric car is £0!

 

[ainsworth74]

Maybe even a DVT so a loco isnt needed to pull it into euston?

I doubt it. DVTs work well on fixed formation trains (like the Night Riviera which only changes at the depot) putting one on a train that splits/joins into/from two/three portions sounds like a recipe for some very complex movements for very little gain.

I'm sceptical of the idea of new stock for the sleeper, partly because of the sums involved and partly because it'd be a fairly small/ bespoke order. Wait and try to convert some Mk3s from redundant FGW HSTs (post-IEP)?

Agreed, at best we're going to get a through refurbishment rather than brand new stock. Though conversions could be possible to replace the Mk2s perhaps. We know you can't go from a sleeper to a day carriage but I wonder if it's possible to go the other way?