Northern Rail: The most cynical TOC out there?

[snail]

There are actually posters going up saying that, for customers from Mauldeth Road, off-peak tickets will no longer be valid on the 0929 service. Nobody has noticed my rear end. Can I infer from your explanation, Indigo2, that the WTT will schedule the train in exactly the same way as the day's subsequent xx:30 departures? If so, there can be absolutely no justification for this alteration in the PTT - and I fully intend to let them know how thoroughly disgusted I am.

How's this for a piece of logic, Mr Disgusted of Mauldeth Road: That train is the 0831 from Crewe. Mauldeth Road is the last stop before Piccadilly. On the presumption that the 0930 cut off applies to all station stops for that train, everyone travelling on it will be paying peak fares except those joining at the last stop. By moving that last timing forward by 1 minute, the complete journey becomes subject to peak fares. That would make it simpler both on train and on arrival at Piccadilly to ascertain if passengers had the correct (Anytime) ticket instead of having to allow for one small group of passengers holding Off-Peak tickets.

I know moving from Peak to Off-Peak during a journey happens a lot elsewhere - I take advantage of Off-Peak shoulder timings myself on certain journeys - but it's a possibility. Or am I crediting Northern with too much intelligence?

 

[ANorthernGuard]

Can only go on experience - am happy to be corrected by Northern staff - but they tend to stick to the rear coach/ dispatch from the rear doors.

on The "West" instruction is

on a 323 you can dispatch from the middle or rear

on diesels if you have a clear view of the train you must close the doors from the rear of the train (even if you have 2 sets), however you can open them from the front and then go to the back to close them

on a curved platform you are allowed to do the doors from the front doors of the rear unit.

we are NOT allowed in the front unit to do tickets, and must always be in the rear set (obviously if there is 2 sets coupled together)

if the rear set is locked out of use then we must ride in the rear cab of the open unit.

thats about as simple and straightforward as I can make it.

 

[Starmill]

How's this for a piece of logic, Mr Disgusted of Mauldeth Road: That train is the 0831 from Crewe. Mauldeth Road is the last stop before Piccadilly. On the presumption that the 0930 cut off applies to all station stops for that train, everyone travelling on it will be paying peak fares except those joining at the last stop. By moving that last timing forward by 1 minute, the complete journey becomes subject to peak fares. That would make it simpler both on train and on arrival at Piccadilly to ascertain if passengers had the correct (Anytime) ticket instead of having to allow for one small group of passengers holding Off-Peak tickets.

I know moving from Peak to Off-Peak during a journey happens a lot elsewhere - I take advantage of Off-Peak shoulder timings myself on certain journeys - but it's a possibility. Or am I crediting Northern with too much intelligence?

I think what you are crediting them with is the man-power and know how to ensure that the people with off peak tickets are cross referenced with journrys from MAU, but I guess that in itself does answer my question! Still, it seems a shame to penalise anyone because Northern cannot enforce the rules!

 

[HH]

1. If the train is *very crowded* Northern might have deliberately made it peak to push passengers to the next train.

2. Just how long do you have to stand from Mauldeth Road?

3. Northern Rail is one of the most heavily funded TOCs in the UK; you're not paying what it costs.

 

[snail]

It's 12 minutes from Mauldeth Road to Piccadilly. The next train is at 0959.

 

[davido39]

Why let a franchise with no passenger friendly conditions?! It goes to show how incompetent the government is when dealing with the railways. Sounds to me like the old north south divide argument. Up here in Scotlandshire the franchise was let with a raft of conditions, hence most trains are clean, have regular overhauls which you can actually feel when traveling on - for instance - a class 156.

In contrast I had the misfortune of travelling on many northern services early this year and found the diesel units to be in dire need of attention.

My days travel was as follows: Caught the train at my home station (Kilmarnock) up to Carlisle. From Carlisle decided to have a trip along the Settle Carlisle line to its destination of Leeds, on approach to Skipton something had gone wrong with the 158 so we had to decant the train and use a forwarding service to Leeds. At Leeds I connected with the York Blackpool service as far as Accrington. The return was in reverse, at Leeds I boarded the waiting Leeds Carlisle service which consisted of a single class 158 unit at rush hour. The train was packed to the rafters and was increasingly getting busier as the train was held at Leeds for 15 minutes past its allotted departure. The train was standing room only as far as Settle where quite a few passengers departed.
I was glad to get back to Carlisle and board the Scotrail class 156 which I have to say was in better condition mechanically than Northern's Class 158's and remarkably a lot smoother ride too!

Its not the first time I've had this experience, I used to live in Accrington and remember Northern Spirit taking over operations in the North West including the Trans Pennine Express who refurbished the 158 units under their franchise and they had done a good job of the units. By the time the franchise was split and given to the new franchisee, I had already moved to Scotland so when I used Northern to visit relatives I was amazed how overcrowded the trains were and how bad the trains were maintained.

Not a way to award a franchise in my opinion!

 

[PR1Berske]

Certainly on 14*'s the guard always seems to have to go all the way to the back of the train to open the doors.

It's very irritating when you're waiting ages in the freezing cold/pouring rain for the guard to release the doors

I was on my way back from Manchester Victoria to Preston, ticket in hand as the guard approached, but every time he made it to our carriage he had to walk back to open the doors

I eventually got my ticket scribbled on but only after watching the poor bloke walk up to and back from my line of sight about three times

 

[150man]

In defence of Northern
Firstly i have to declare an interest as i drive their trains but i qualify that with saying i am no flag waver or apologist for any private train operator.
Some facts: All trains are cleaned every night and often during the day where time permits between services, yes i often see them in a terrible state but the cleaners dont leave them that way unfortunately some of the passengers do.
Now punctuality, most of my trains run on time or arrive early and if they dont its almost always due to being stuck waiting for a late running Trans Pennine 'Express' or London Midland, East Midland etc etc. The majority of Northern services are class 2 trains and so take second place to class 1 express trains when it comes to paths in to major stations or at junctions.
Most of our trains are 20+ years old and the majority cannot travel at more than 75mph and many of our routes have lower line speeds than that.
when you take these facts in to consideration the 91% performance figure is a tribute to the staff,train crew,station and engineering.

 

[tbtc]

on The "West" instruction is

on a 323 you can dispatch from the middle or rear

on diesels if you have a clear view of the train you must close the doors from the rear of the train (even if you have 2 sets), however you can open them from the front and then go to the back to close them

on a curved platform you are allowed to do the doors from the front doors of the rear unit.

we are NOT allowed in the front unit to do tickets, and must always be in the rear set (obviously if there is 2 sets coupled together)

if the rear set is locked out of use then we must ride in the rear cab of the open unit.

thats about as simple and straightforward as I can make it.

Cheers - exactly the information that I was after

 

[northwichcat]

Now punctuality, most of my trains run on time or arrive early and if they dont its almost always due to being stuck waiting for a late running Trans Pennine 'Express' or London Midland, East Midland etc etc.

Not sure what line(s) you sign but I'm surprised if you don't experience delays due to overcrowded trains, delays to to train faults, delays due to weather and traction related issues, delays due to the guard not returning to the rear quickly enough after checking tickets, infrastructure problems etc.

While a lot of Northern services arrive at their final destination 'early' that is due to generous padding in the timetable and usually arriving at the final destination 3 minutes early sometimes means the train departed the second to last station 2 minutes late.

 

[HSTEd]

Doing these things is inevitable since this allows them to make more money.

 

[ANorthernGuard]

Not sure what line(s) you sign but I'm surprised if you don't experience delays due to overcrowded trains, delays to to train faults, delays due to weather and traction related issues, delays due to the guard not returning to the rear quickly enough after checking tickets, infrastructure problems etc.

While a lot of Northern services arrive at their final destination 'early' that is due to generous padding in the timetable and usually arriving at the final destination 3 minutes early sometimes means the train departed the second to last station 2 minutes late.

no where near necesarily, I have lost count how many times I have left somewhere like Mauldeth Road or Ashburys bang on time then being held outside Piccagilly for the expresses, in fact its the expresses that tend to cause a lot of the delays, Guide Bridge is a Perfect example as is Manchester Airport, TPE seem to be the main cause.

 

[Greybeard33]

I was on my way back from Manchester Victoria to Preston, ticket in hand as the guard approached, but every time he made it to our carriage he had to walk back to open the doors

I eventually got my ticket scribbled on but only after watching the poor bloke walk up to and back from my line of sight about three times

It seems to me that an investment in TVMs at every station along a commuter route would soon pay for itself in increased revenue, if supported by enforcement of penalty fares for boarding without a ticket.

I have observed that many passengers routinely choose to purchase their ticket from the guard, even though they have boarded at a station with a ticket office (but open access to the platform - e.g. Stockport [southbound], Altrincham and Hale). This gives the guard an excessive workload on a crowded service with frequent stops, contributing to delays in door release.

At Hale the booking clerk sometimes emerges and shouts down the platform to the waiting passengers "Have you all got your tickets?", usually with little effect!

 

[Deerfold]

I have observed that many passengers routinely choose to purchase their ticket from the guard, even though they have boarded at a station with a ticket office (but open access to the platform - e.g. Stockport [southbound], Altrincham and Hale). This gives the guard an excessive workload on a crowded service with frequent stops, contributing to delays in door release.

This is probably, at least in part, because in the 70s and 80s paying on the train was encouraged - and in some cases enforced.

Many stations in West Yorkshire and Greater Manchester had no facilities for buying tickets for all or much of the day for 30 years or so. Northern are finally fitting a few more TVMs and trying to change attitudes but many are ingrained.

 

[Greybeard33]

This is probably, at least in part, because in the 70s and 80s paying on the train was encouraged - and in some cases enforced.

Many stations in West Yorkshire and Greater Manchester had no facilities for buying tickets for all or much of the day for 30 years or so. Northern are finally fitting a few more TVMs and trying to change attitudes but many are ingrained.

Manchester Metrolink has been quite successful in "changing attitudes" on the lines it has taken over (TVMs at every station, no conductors). It relies on hit squads of inspectors who swoop on a tram at random and allow no opportunity for the ticketless to escape.

 

[eastdyke]

Manchester Metrolink has been quite successful in "changing attitudes" on the lines it has taken over (TVMs at every station, no conductors). It relies on hit squads of inspectors who swoop on a tram at random and allow no opportunity for the ticketless to escape.

Does this help?

From Metrolink website:

All passengers must be in possession of the correct ticket, pass or season ticket before boarding a tram. Any passenger who is unable to produce a valid ticket when requested to do is liable to pay a Standard Fare charge.

The Standard Fare charge of £100 must be paid within 21 days. Any payments received within 14 days of the date of issue will benefit from 50% reduction and will be charged £50. Metrolink will commence legal proceedings if no payment has been received within 21 days of date of issue.

We should aim for all ticketless travel on public transport across the UK to be dealt with in the same way.

 

[WatcherZero]

Talking to a couple of Metrolink PSR's after one two hour revenue protection operation, 171 tickets checked, 11 address checks, 7 penalty fares issued, 2 arrested by police for giving a false address.

 

[Deerfold]

Does this help?

From Metrolink website:



We should aim for all ticketless travel on public transport across the UK to be dealt with in the same way.

I believe Metrolink has facilities to pay by cash or card for any journey on its network from any station, including day tickets? That helps.

 

[AndyLandy]

I believe Metrolink has facilities to pay by cash or card for any journey on its network from any station, including day tickets? That helps.

Can you buy integrated tickets for onward travel with National Rail from the Metrolink ticket machines?

 

[Deerfold]

Can you buy integrated tickets for onward travel with National Rail from the Metrolink ticket machines?

Certainly not to anywhere which was why I was careful to specify "its" network.

 

[YorkshireBear]

Northern taking a right beating on Twitter today. Two particular complainants have taken offence.
One that he wasnt aware of a crash involving a train that seriously injured woman and child. And one took offence at staff having a fag break.

 

[Deerfold]

Northern taking a right beating on Twitter today. Two particular complainants have taken offence.
One that he wasnt aware of a crash involving a train that seriously injured woman and child.

Was that the one involving an EM train?

 

[YorkshireBear]

Was that the one involving an EM train?

Yep exactly.... some right morons on twitter, it is a dangerous resource for a TOC.
He was saying he shouldnt be asking people about christmas songs and asking what people are looking forward to about christmas when one of their trains has crashed.

 

[transmanche]

Northern taking a right beating on Twitter today. Two particular complainants have taken offence.
One that he wasnt aware of a crash involving a train that seriously injured woman and child.

I note that the complainer is a 'Railway Volunteer'.

 

[YorkshireBear]

I note that the complainer is a 'Railway Volunteer'.

Interesting, still think hes a moron though... How do northerns office twitter staff know everything in the news?

 

[ANorthernGuard]

Ive said this before and ill say it again: their model is so sucessful because their TVMs are so much better! Easy to use, all offer cash and card facilitiies and they are in abundance (relative to passenger numbers) on tje platform. Simply not the case with Northern.

One problem ypu do get on metrolink that a Northern guard would not miss is ticket validity. TT, admittedly the biggest problem, is tackled ruthlessly, but if you produce an dout of date ticket or a child ticket you have no right to you are very unlikely to be pulled up on it. By far the biggest problem though is routeing. I once saw somone with an Old Trafford to Stretford return get checked at Besses o the Barn and they didnt say anything!!! Through rail tickets are even worse, if even the staff dont know ahere Metrolink Zone E is how can the public be expected to?

just found out where Zone "P" is lol, its hard work keeping up with the Metrolink why on earth we can't just type in the station I will never know, stupid system.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

Northern taking a right beating on Twitter today. Two particular complainants have taken offence.
One that he wasnt aware of a crash involving a train that seriously injured woman and child. And one took offence at staff having a fag break.

also known as the Driver (or maybe guard) taking their PNB, sadly some people think that Traincrew are not allowed a break even though we may not have stooped (especially at peak) since say 4/5am

 

[HH]

But if ignorance is bliss, then our passengers should be a happy lot...

 

[telstarbox]

Northern will reinstate the 0930 from Mauldeth Road in the May 2013 timetable change.

http://menmedia.co.uk/manchestereve...bosses-to-back-track-over-morning-time-change