Does a price capped oyster become a valid travelcard?

[Matt Taylor]

Had an interesting situation on board recently, I was working a 1Pxx running fast from Waterloo to Woking. Doing a ticket check a lady presented a Clapham to Woking ticket plus an oyster card which she said she had used throughout the morning and had been price capped for the day. She had found herself in Waterloo and decided to jump on the fast train rather than use her oyster card to Clapham and then getting a stopping train. She had no documentation to verify whether she had used her oyster that morning or not and we are not issued with oyster readers.

Fortunately for me I had a get-out clause because she had paid the minimum fare (YP card) for the Woking ticket so I was able to do a zero fare excess. But I don't really know if her combination could be termed as valid, can others advise please?

 

[Be3G]

Nope, it couldn't. For which reason, once the price cap has been reached for the day one is still obliged to touch in and out fully for the rest of the day (a requirement which is not made of period travelcard holders). It's an annoying technicality, and is partly why some of us have always hoped TfL would actually make it possible to load an Oyster with a day travelcard in the same way that it can be loaded with season tickets.

The above also means that the passenger will have been faced with an incomplete journey charge after touching in at Waterloo.

 

[RJ]

Had an interesting situation on board recently, I was working a 1Pxx running fast from Waterloo to Woking. Doing a ticket check a lady presented a Clapham to Woking ticket plus an oyster card which she said she had used throughout the morning and had been price capped for the day. She had found herself in Waterloo and decided to jump on the fast train rather than use her oyster card to Clapham and then getting a stopping train. She had no documentation to verify whether she had used her oyster that morning or not and we are not issued with oyster readers.

Fortunately for me I had a get-out clause because she had paid the minimum fare (YP card) for the Woking ticket so I was able to do a zero fare excess. But I don't really know if her combination could be termed as valid, can others advise please?

Not valid. She would have had a nasty surprise at Waterloo by having a maximum exit charge deducted, regardless of whether or not it had capped. Any journey including use of Oyster PAYG requires the card to be both touched in and touched out.

 

[maniacmartin]

No it doesn't as BE3G says, and even if it did became a Day Travelcard, it wouldn't be eligible for combination on trains that don't call at the splitting station, as Day travelcards are not Season tickets for 19c.

 

[34D]

No it doesn't as BE3G says, and even if it did became a Day Travelcard, it wouldn't be eligible for combination on trains that don't call at the splitting station, as Day travelcards are not Season tickets for 19c.

True. And this lady couldn't have been issued with a Woking-Boundary Zone 3 ticket as she didn't have the appropriate travelcard.

Howeveran I'd like to commend the OP (a guard?) for doing the right thing given he wasn't sure - other guards/RPIs would have issued a PF of twice the single fare.

 

[barrykas]

Had one yesterday, who'd travelled from Rickmansworth using Oyster PAYG and then onto Haslemere. She'd been sold a Boundary Zone 6 to Haslemere ticket and demanded to know why she'd incurred two incomplete journey charges.

Apparently telling her that she'd misused her Oyster was the wrong thing to do, and I'm an unhelpful $@#% because I wouldn't resolve the journeys in question, nor would I refund the ticket she'd been incorrectly sold (which we hadn't issued). :roll:

 

[Nick W]

Apparently telling her that she'd misused her Oyster was the wrong thing to do, and I'm an unhelpful $@#% because I wouldn't resolve the journeys in question, nor would I refund the ticket she'd been incorrectly sold (which we hadn't issued). :roll:

Telling her she'd misused her Oyster card was the right thing to do in my opinion, but why couldn't you resolve the journeys given she was potential the victim of incorrect advice? I think unhelpful is the correct adjective - though if you're following policy you are obviously not to blame!

 

[swt_passenger]

This surely goes back to the reason why Boundary zone tickets should normally only be sold by ticket offices, so that the existence of an appropriate zonal ticket can be confirmed, and the necessary advice given if the passenger is discovered to be intending to use PAYG, rather than a travelcard?

But with respect to maniacmartin's reference to CofC 19c, surely a normal paper day travelcard and a BZ fare can be combined as both are 'zonal tickets' and therefore come under 19a? Or is this another area where some doubt exists?

 

[Mike395]

But with respect to maniacmartin's reference to CofC 19c, surely a normal paper day travelcard and a BZ fare can be combined as both are 'zonal tickets' and therefore come under 19a? Or is this another area where some doubt exists?

Yes, they can - however they both have to be Zonal so a paper Day Travelcard cannot be combined with a Clapham-Woking point-to-point ticket.

 

[swt_passenger]

Yes, they can - however they both have to be Zonal so a paper Day Travelcard cannot be combined with a Clapham-Woking point-to-point ticket.

Ah my mistake, I thought we were on about the BZ6 to Haslemere...

 

[maniacmartin]

Are Boundary Zone tickets zonal? It's a bit of a grey area. I always tended towards thinking that they are not. The allow travel to or from a zone boundary, but do not allow travel within a zone as such

 

[bb21]

Boundary tickets are "zonal" for the purpose of Condition 19(a). It is not a grey area.

 

[Mike395]

Indeed, considering their sole purpose is to be combined with a zonal ticket, it would be odd if they were not! :P

 

[barrykas]

Telling her she'd misused her Oyster card was the right thing to do in my opinion, but why couldn't you resolve the journeys given she was potential the victim of incorrect advice? I think unhelpful is the correct adjective - though if you're following policy you are obviously not to blame!

Company policy to only resolve issues involving our own TOC, which this didn't...Though, even if I'd wanted to do so, I couldn't as it wasn't the same day and she'd made other PAYG journeys in the intervening period, so would need to contact the Oyster Helpdesk anyway.

 

[Goatboy]

Company policy to only resolve issues involving our own TOC, which this didn't

Aah the wonders of an integrated railway system

 

[Clip]

Aah the wonders of an integrated railway system

Lul an NR have never been integrated.

 

[embers25]

Yes, they can - however they both have to be Zonal so a paper Day Travelcard cannot be combined with a Clapham-Woking point-to-point ticket.

During the Olympics the advice SWT posted on all ticket machines at Woking was to buy a Woking-Surbiton ticket to link with your Olympic Travelcard not a Woking to Boundary Zone 6 ticket (which of course the machine doesn't sell annoyingly). Based on the above comment does that mean that combination isn't actually valid on non-stop Woking-Waterloo trains?

 

[Mike395]

Correct with normal day TCs, although the Olympic TCs had slightly different conditions so IIRC they would have been valid.

 

[island]

Are Boundary Zone tickets zonal? It's a bit of a grey area. I always tended towards thinking that they are not. The allow travel to or from a zone boundary, but do not allow travel within a zone as such

It's arguable that they fall outside the NRCoC definition, but it would be otiose if they did not work with a day travelcard.

 

[Nick W]

Company policy to only resolve issues involving our own TOC, which this didn't...Though, even if I'd wanted to do so, I couldn't as it wasn't the same day and she'd made other PAYG journeys in the intervening period, so would need to contact the Oyster Helpdesk anyway.

That's disappointing and undermines the efforts towards integrated ticketing.

I've not found the service at ticket offices or the helpline to be at all brilliant, but if you write to them the service is fantastic!

 

[Deerfold]

That's disappointing and undermines the efforts towards integrated ticketing.

But presumably makes it less likely that someone can go from TOC to TOC if they're trying to get something dodgy done - they'll either go to a TOC which knows the area or to the central call centre who should be able to look things up.

I've not found the service at ticket offices or the helpline to be at all brilliant, but if you write to them the service is fantastic!

Looks like that's where to point people!

 

[GodAtum]

This has caught me out before. It's extremely annoying having to exit at Clapham to buy a ticket to Surbiton - Guildford (I have a zones 1-6 TC).

 

[island]

Travelcards are not valid at Clapham nor anywhere near there. If you meant Clapham Junction, then I don't think you will need to exit there if you have a Travelcard (as there will not be any entry charge), although you will of course need to buy the ticket before you travel unless you get a friendly guard.

 

[maniacmartin]

Travelcards are not valid at Clapham nor anywhere near there. If you meant Clapham Junction, then I don't think you will need to exit there if you have a Travelcard (as there will not be any entry charge), although you will of course need to buy the ticket before you travel unless you get a friendly guard.

Pedant!

 

[elagueesti]

It constantly annoys me that you cannot load a 1 day Travelcard onto an Oyster card if you're happy to queue. I have to buy paper ones so I'm then able to buy a boundary zone 6 to destination ticket.

 

[barrykas]

Oddly, I have seen an Oyster with a Day Travelcard loaded onto it...Only once, mind you, and I was unable to get FasTIS+ to replicate such an issue.

 

[MikeWh]

Having witnessed countless people being effectively overcharged when buying a travelcard "just in case", I've previously been against the idea of loading a day travelcard onto an Oyster. However, now that there will be a difference between the daily cap and the equivalent travelcard for everyone, I think there might be some merit in allowing the more expensive travelcard to be loaded. As long as it is made clear that they are definitely spending more than they need to just to get the benefit of not needing to touch in/out.

I'd also be in favour of allowing day travelcards to be loaded when bought with a boundary zone ticket to somewhere outside the Oyster area. But this would require all TOC ticket offices to handle Oyster sales, so isn't likely to happen any time soon.

 

[Be3G]

I think there might be some merit in allowing the more expensive travelcard to be loaded.

Note that the TOCs would ever do this, but I would want to see a day travelcard on an Oyster being given the same price as the relevant daily price cap – seeing as the reason given for the price difference next year is to encourage people to use Oyster and/or because paper is more expensive.

 

[MikeWh]

Note that the TOCs would ever do this, but I would want to see a day travelcard on an Oyster being given the same price as the relevant daily price cap – seeing as the reason given for the price difference next year is to encourage people to use Oyster and/or because paper is more expensive.

The problem with that is that you are then breaking the travelcard is a product and Oyster is the storage medium mantra. The daily price cap is not a travelcard and there are significant differences, including the inability to use boundary zone tickets with a capped Oyster.

 

[Be3G]

But by that token, the ‘mantra’ was broken long ago when TfL removed the (50p?) price difference between PAYG caps and paper travelcards, once PAYG was rolled out fully across National Rail.