Southern ban photography unless "permission" is sought

[yorkie]

http://www.manchestereveningnews.co.uk/news/s/1004/1004423_trainspotter_threatened_with_arrest.html

A spokesman for Southern said: "In these times of heightened security we do not allow photographs to be taken at our stations unless prior permission has been sought. We would rather staff challenge those taking photographs without permission than turn a blind eye which has the potential to result in regrettable consequences."

Are they allowed to do this?!

Of course, they can't at, say, Victoria which is an NR station

 

[Tom]

I suggest someone emails Southern the guidelines.

 

[richa2002]

To be honest, we shouldn't have to tell the station staff what we're doing beforehand. It's a free country. If they're so bothered, they can come and ask us ourselves.

 

[Turbostar]

For those that are interested, the rules are here:

http://www.nationalrail.co.uk/passenger_services/guidelines_for_rail_enthusiasts.htm
http://www.networkrail.co.uk/aspx/777.aspx

Mart

P.S It was in Eastbourne, Sussex, not Manchester Victoria!

 

[richa2002]

For those that are interested, the rules are here:

http://www.nationalrail.co.uk/passenger_services/guidelines_for_rail_enthusiasts.htm
http://www.networkrail.co.uk/aspx/777.aspx

Mart

P.S It was in Eastbourne, Sussex, not Manchester Victoria!

Yorkie is saying for example at London Victoria.

 

[Turbostar]

Soz, misunderstood what he said. Have e-mailed Southern anyway lol

Mart

 

[richa2002]

Hehe, no problem .

 

[devon_metro]

Why are we being restricted from doing certain things? This country is going mad.

 

[Dennis]

With problems surrounding tresspass and vandalism, as well as health and safety considerations, I can understand why rail staff get nervous when anyone strays towards platform ends and I can also appreciate that they may not like having a camera pointed at them while at work.

I'm not surprised that staff should approach photters and challenge their activities but hiding behind 'security' as a reason is a bit lame and making a bloke (who may not even be a railfan) delete pictures seems out of order.

Anyway, it's reassuring to know that Southern are so concerned about the security threats at their stations. I take it we can expect to see a full complement of staff at all of their facilities throughout (and even beyond) operational hours. These staff might not only be able to look out for potential terrorists but also sell / check tickets and clean-up the station whilst also keeping an eye out for other criminal activity.

 

[5872]

http://www.manchestereveningnews.co.uk/news/s/1004/1004423_trainspotter_threatened_with_arrest.html

A spokesman for Southern said: "In these times of heightened security we do not allow photographs to be taken at our stations unless prior permission has been sought. We would rather staff challenge those taking photographs without permission than turn a blind eye which has the potential to result in regrettable consequences."

Are they allowed to do this?!

Of course, they can't at, say, Victoria which is an NR station

Dose this include clapham junction because its Southern/SWT/Silverlink ,I wonder what would happen if I ventured onto Epsom downs or Ashtead....Then we could see with the guidlines aswell!

 

[paul1609]

Maybe someone can correct me but it seems to me that Southern are within the scope of the guidelines for enthusiasts, which require that you advise a member of rail staff of your presence on the station. I'm not sure that Eastbourne would be defined as a major station but it would certainly have a duty manager

 

[Jim]

http://www.manchestereveningnews.co.uk/news/s/1004/1004423_trainspotter_threatened_with_arrest.html

A spokesman for Southern said: "In these times of heightened security we do not allow photographs to be taken at our stations unless prior permission has been sought. We would rather staff challenge those taking photographs without permission than turn a blind eye which has the potential to result in regrettable consequences."

Are they allowed to do this?!

Of course, they can't at, say, Victoria which is an NR station

In theory, yes they are allowed to do it as there stations are private property, I don;t see any way that we caan challenge it

 

[compsci]

I do not believe that there is any law requiring that you seek permission to include someone in a photograph, certainly not in the Data Protection Act.

As has been said many times before, forcing someone to delete a photograph amounts to destruction of property.

 

[Julian G]

Does this include clapham junction because its Southern/SWT/Silverlink

Clapham Junction is alright,

 

[thefab444]

They get tons of photters/spotters at Clapham so you don't get bothered there, maybe if you go to a bit nobody else does - like hanging around right on the edge of Platform 8 will probably get you told off, but just platform-ending they are fine with.

Who actually manages Clapham? I think the relevant platforms have the relevant TOC colours; 2 - 11 (?) have SWT branding, 12 - 17 have Southern branding.

 

[Z12XE]

Managed by SWT according to National Rail: http://www.nationalrail.co.uk/stations/CLJ.html

 

[Julian G]

Who actually manages Clapham? I think the relevant platforms have the relevant TOC colours; 2 - 11 (?) have SWT branding, 12 - 17 have Southern branding.

It's SWT, IIRC

 

[Tom]

SWT manage station facilities as well as various other bits and bobs, the only Southern prescence is on their platforms where there are generally Southern staff. Where SN shares an island with SWT, SWT staff are used generally.

 

[Tom B]

What happens at un-staffed - i.e. the majority - of stations then?

 

[Tom]

Not that many stations are unstaffed on SN, IIRC.

 

[Mojo]

If they wanted these guidelines to be properly followed, they'd be in printed form, or posted at stations, not hidden away on some website.

Concerned about Data Protection? Well, can I object to Southern videoing me with their CCTV every time I am on one of their stations? No - of course not, CCTV has its purpose, I can hardly see what this man (or anyone else) is going to do wrong.

Does a Terrorist really need to take a picture of a train to work out how to blow it up? And anyone *that* determined would carry on regardless or go elsewhere.

 

[Turbostar]

What baffles me is that, they say to get rid of the pic because it breaches security??? Ok, so what they gonna do if you go outside the station, & take another photo??? lol This is just downright daft. Yeh I can see their point to a certain extent, but this is getting over the top & PC now.

Mart

 

[Coxster]

What happens at un-staffed - i.e. the majority - of stations then?

Well at unstaffed stations there are no staff to get upset by your presence in the first place

 

[Tom B]

Indeed. They can't bat on about it being a security problem, if Bin Laden went to Doncaster and got told off for taking photos, he would just go to Conisborough or KKS instead. Bit like the bin thing - remove one place and they'll find another.

 

[WessexWarrior]

Does a Terrorist really need to take a picture of a train to work out how to blow it up? And anyone *that* determined would carry on regardless or go elsewhere.

That nails the argument on the head. Can these people blow up a train with a camera? Erm, no. The amount of things that are being put in place because of 'terrorism fears' are frightening and a serious threat to our personal freedoms.

 

[paul1609]

From Tony Miles of Modern Railways re Railway Photography;
"The news from Southern is that basically they accept that staff were
completely out of order at Eastbourne and a new briefing will be
issued this week.
Interestingly they tell me they accepted that staff had acted
inappropriately very quickly and gave local press a much more
"wholehearted" apology and response - much of which was ignored.
(spoils a good story?).

Customer Services will also be rebriefed.

They also say that they will put a welcome up on their own website and
will be asking ATOC why the guidelines for enthusiasts are so hard to
locate on the NationalRaill website.

So - quite a bit of progress and at least the company has taken the
events on board. Looking back at the drawing up of the guidelines I
recall Southern were quick to agree to them so I was surprised at what
happened at Eastbourne.

Meanwhile I accept the wording isn't perfect and bits of it are a bit
complex - but it had to win over every TOC and as a first step its
certainly helped to make some progress. I've had some great welcomes
recently - including one station where the staff approached me to ask
if I'd read the NationalRail guidelines for enthusiasts!

Please keep the reports coming in to Railway Magazine - work is in
progress to tighten up the wording etc. and meetings with all sorts of
people are being arranged.

Tony"

 

[Dennis]

We should be congratulating Southern on this positive approach.

It is however still right to expect staff to approach anyone acting in a suspicious, potentially unsafe or criminal manner and photters must act in a suitably responsible way.

 

[LucaZone]

Interested, I wonder if this might be of any input to the conversation:

Thank you for signing the petition on the Downing Street website calling for the Prime Minister to stop proposed restrictions on photography in public places.

This petition has already attracted over 60,000 signatures from people who obviously share your concern. Not surprisingly, the idea that the Government might be poised to restrict your ability to take photos has caused some puzzlement and even alarm.

We have therefore decided to respond to this petition before its closing date of August, in order to reassure people.

The Government appreciates that millions of people in this country enjoy photography. So we have checked carefully to see if any Government department was considering any proposal that might possibly lead to the sort of restrictions suggested by this petition. We have been assured this is not the case.

There may be cases where individual schools or other bodies believe it is necessary to have some restrictions on photography, for instance to protect children or security, but that would be a matter for local decisions.

In fact, Simon Taylor, who started the petition, has since made clear that he was not really referring to Government action or legislation. His main concern appears to be that photographic societies and other organisations may introduce voluntary ID cards for members to help them explain why they are taking photographs. Again, any such scheme would not involve the Government.

We hope this re-assures you and clears up the confusion.

--- old post above --- --- new post below ---
AFAIA Nobody tells me what to do with my camera or my photographs unless they wear a police uniform and show me a warrent. AFAIA that is MY legal Data Protection Act!

Ive been caught taking pictures from a hillside overlooking the Prime Ministers country retreat, by 2 armed officers in a rangerover, and even THEY didnt ask the images to be deleted! Just that they could see what it was I had taken images of. They did however want my name and address for security records haha.

 

[Turbostar]

Got a reply from Southern today:

Thank you for your email.

Southern has no objection to people taking photographs of trains from its premises. All we ask is that:

á that such persons make themselves known to any staff upon arrival (so that staff can be satisfied as to their demeanour, and for the purposes of being given a safety briefing where appropriate),
á that there should be no interference with passengers or staff,
á that such photographs should not include close-ups of passengers or staff,
á that flash should not be used when photographing on-coming trains,
á that persons taking photographs should not enter prohibited areas,
á and that such persons keep well clear of platform edges.

As to how one might be advised of this policy in advance, we can be e-mailed via the web-site or telephoned on 08451 27 29 20.

Regards

David Cotterell
Southern Customer Services

 

[yorkie]

á that such persons make themselves known to any staff upon arrival (so that staff can be satisfied as to their demeanour, and for the purposes of being given a safety briefing where appropriate),

That differs from the wording in the guidelines. The guidelines actually say "enthusiasts" should make themselves known, it doesn't say you have to make youselves known to take photos. It doesn't say you have to have a particular "demeanour" either. As for the safety briefing, if I do not stray away from public areas and if I have a ticket for travel, I do not need a safety briefing any more than any other passenger. I will never "make myself known" as I am not compelled to do so. According to the guidelines you should make yourself known just for being an enthusiast even if you are just there to catch a train.

Interesting that they're no longer using the term "permission" but they are hinting at it.

á that such photographs should not include close-ups of passengers or staff,

How can this be enforced?