Ticket revenue distribution

[Roverman]

After reading the Northern threads tonight I am sensing there is not a lot of love 'in the room' for them and was wondering how, as a fare paying passenger one could demonstrate, passively about them.

Here is my idea. Please feel free to point out any inaccuracies etc

Train tickets can be bought from TOCs and agents authorised to sell tickets (RedSpottedHanky,Trainline etc) if you buy the ticket from the TOC you travel on they get to keep most of the money, if however you buy it from a rival TOC or agent the revenue is shared out between the two?

Therefore would it not make sense for everyone on here, the next time they buy a ticket for a Northern service to buy it from anyone but Northern, therefore depriving them of some revenue. I would also advise people to buy the cheapest ticket possible, loaded (legally) with any discounts or railcards but I imagine we all do that anyway.

This way they still have to convey you but they are getting less moolah for the privilege. They of course may never notice this but it may feel like a moral victory for us?

Am I crazy? Is this allowed?

 

[GadgetMan]

Is this allowed?

Is what allowed? Buying your ticket before boarding?

Isn't that what the TOCs want you to do anyway? The fact that you are now suggesting it goes to show their hard stance is working.

Just to add, buying off a different agent is not the victory you think. As the commission for selling the ticket isn't all profit. Out of that comes the cost of processing the card transaction, then if you collect your ticket from a Northern operated TVM, they would be paid for printing the ticket. Northern would obviously still get their full share of the revenue that they are entitled to for the journey being made if it's on their route.

 

[pjnathanail]

Does anyone know the percentage retailers get?
It must be quite large because EC have their rewards scheme with very high value items!

 

[eastdyke]

Does anyone know the percentage retailers get?
...

Last I heard I think that it was 9% (for sales by other TOC's). Industry 'outsiders' probably less.

 

[barrykas]

The National rates of commission are specified in the Ticketing and Settlement Agreement.

For most tickets it's 9% when sold on train, at a station or through an impartial Telesales office (i.e. one that will sell a ticket for any TOC, not just the one the office is run for) and 2% for season tickets. Lower rates apply for online sales and those through business travel offices.

From an earlier thread:

The seller gets a debit for the full cost of the ticket, but then gets a credit for the commission (if any).

The operators that get revenue from the ticket get credits for their percentage and debits for their share of the commission.

So if you have a ticket costing £120 and TOC A gets 50%, TOC B gets 25% and TOCs C and D get 12.5% each, and it's sold by TOC E at a station:

• TOC E gets a debit for £120 and a credit for £10.80.
• TOC A gets a credit for £60 and a debit for £5.40.
• TOC B gets a credit for £30 and a debit for £2.70.
• TOCs C and D get credits for £15 and debits for £1.35 each.

Thus ensuring the debits and credits balance each other.

Things get more complicated with season tickets, as the revenue from those is spread across the validity of the ticket and paid every four weeks.

I should note that the figures given above are purely off the top of my head, and are unlikely to reflect reality for any specific flow, but you get the idea.

Cheers,

Barry

 

[Clip]

Does anyone know the percentage retailers get?
It must be quite large because EC have their rewards scheme with very high value items!

But you now have to spend quite a lot with them as they have just changed the offer. So all them 9% soon add up.

 

[transmanche]

After reading the Northern threads tonight I am sensing there is not a lot of love 'in the room' for them

I get the feeling that most of the complaints seem to be about operations in the North West - specifically around Manchester.

Up here in the North East: customer service is good, guards are friendly and helpful; stations are always clean and tidy with up-to-date timetables; fares are good value (especially the £4 Carlisle-Newcastle Advance and Tyne Valley evening returns); services are frequent; and the 156s are in reasonable nick. Yes, the Pacers let the side down a bit - but the ex-Northern Spirit ones have nice comfy seats.

If I was to have a complaint, it would be that you can't buy Duo tickets from ticket machines..

So all-in-all Northern get a thumbs up from me. It really does seem like it's a completely different TOC to the one operating around Manchester!

 

[eastdyke]

I get the feeling that most of the complaints seem to be about operations in the North West - specifically around Manchester.

Up here in the North East: customer service is good, guards are friendly and helpful; stations are always clean and tidy with up-to-date timetables; fares are good value (especially the £4 Carlisle-Newcastle Advance and Tyne Valley evening returns); services are frequent; and the 156s are in reasonable nick. Yes, the Pacers let the side down a bit - but the ex-Northern Spirit ones have nice comfy seats.

If I was to have a complaint, it would be that you can't buy Duo tickets from ticket machines..

So all-in-all Northern get a thumbs up from me. It really does seem like it's a completely different TOC to the one operating around Manchester!

I visited both Victoria and Picadilly Saturday before last and was pleasantly surprised with the service and general ambiance both on train and in station. Loved Hebden Bridge as well.

Being from darn sarth, I did take the precaution of buying a ticket before travel having been well warned by this forum of what could occur otherwise.

However the most impressive observation was of a steamy windowed single unit 2 car pacer arriving just a couple down at 11.22 into Victoria from Huddersfield. I watched with amazement at the endless stream of passengers disgorging onto the platform. I hope that nobody got left behind. Must have been lovely on board.

110% stock utilisation on that trip!

 

[maniacmartin]

ATOC/RSP recently changed the commission rate for online ticket transactions to around 5% (see the bottom of page 165 of barrykas's linked Ticketing and Sales Agreement. Thus online transactions pay a lower rate of commission than telesales or at stations which get the standard 9%.

This means that it is virtually impossible for online ticket vendors to break even without charging booking fees, after data fees, hosting, TVM fees, card fees, electronic routeing guide fares and reservation system fees.

Sites that offer cashback such as Southern are actually most likely making a loss on at least these transactions, which are subsidised by ticket revenue and the DfT. This adjustment is just one way in which the ATOC cartel flexes its muscles to try and kill off competition from third-party ticket vendors.

 

[pjnathanail]

But you now have to spend quite a lot with them as they have just changed the offer. So all them 9% soon add up.

OT, but I got an email saying the costs of tickets were not increasing, they were just splitting them into singles. Tickets for 2 still exists but just as 4 singles instead!

 

[island]

ATOC/RSP recently changed the commission rate for online ticket transactions to around 5% (see the bottom of page 165 of barrykas's linked Ticketing and Sales Agreement. Thus online transactions pay a lower rate of commission than telesales or at stations which get the standard 9%.

That's odd. I wonder how they justified that.

 

[barrykas]

That's odd. I wonder how they justified that.

At a guess, the theory is probably along the lines of Telesales/Internet/Business Travel Offices having lower overheads than selling a ticket on a train or at a station.

 

[maniacmartin]

It undermines the free market that privatisation was supposed to bring.though.

 

[wibble]

At a guess, the theory is probably along the lines of Telesales/Internet/Business Travel Offices having lower overheads than selling a ticket on a train or at a station.

TOCs can absorb the cost of their Telesales as part of the wider business which private Internet and Business Travel companies cannot do. Private Internet and Business Travel companies will also charge a booking or management fee to their clients so can recoup costs that way.