Advice about Northern Rail penalty notice

[Dr. Linus]

Hi,

I appreciate you all must have seen many threads like this but I couldn't see any that accurately represent my situation.

A few hours ago I boarded a train at Wigan North Western after purchasing a ticket by cash at the ticket office. Almost immediately after departing my ticket was checked by the conductor on board. Unfortunately, along the way I threw some rubbish away from food I'd eaten, along with some old tickets, and my current ticket must have accidentally been thrown away with it, as when I arrived at Liverpool Lime Street I produced my ticket and the inspector pointed out it was dated for the day before. I couldn't find my current ticket and realised I had thrown away the wrong one. I willingly admitted this and the inspector took my details and said I'd be sent a letter to reply to with explanation. I asked to go back onto the train to look through the bin but this was refused. So the evidence I have is:

- My ticket was checked and verified on the train and I can give the exact time and station at which this happened
- I can produce bank statements that show that I make this journey three times a week and always purchase a ticket (although on occasion, such as today, I paid in cash, won't be doing that again!)
- I produced a valid ticket for my outgoing journey the day before and offered to go and find my ticket for today
- I willingly admitted my mistake and in my reply I will happily own up to any out-of-court fines deemed necessary

What do you think will be the outcome? This is the first time this has happened to me with Northern Rail, although when I was 16 I did receive an on the spot Merseyrail fare for a genuine mistake regarding how far my pass covered me.

My main worry is that this will proceed to court, as I work in a school and this would be potentially life-changing in terms of seriousness if I was to receive a criminal record.

So can anyone help shed some light on what may happen/what I should do? The reason I feel this deserves its own thread is that my ticket was actually checked and verified almost immediately after boarding. Thanks.

 

[tony6499]

It is not a penalty fare, that is something completely different. Old tickets have no relevance to this situation but if the Conductor can remember you and checking your ticket that may be the key.

Must say I have heard people say they have thrown the ticket away and stuff like that numerous times so you can excuse the inspector for being sceptical.

 

[Dr. Linus]

It is not a penalty fare, that is something completely different. Old tickets have no relevance to this situation but if the Conductor can remember you and checking your ticket that may be the key.

Must say I have heard people say they have thrown the ticket away and stuff like that numerous times so you can excuse the inspector for being sceptical.

Surely it will be quite easy for them to confirm that a conductor was on that train?

 

[bb21]

What is going to happen is that you are likely to receive a letter asking for your version of the events. Northern will then decide how to proceed. None of the reasons you provided is a valid excuse for not presenting a valid ticket on demand. Can you prove that the ticket was checked onboard?

 

[Dr. Linus]

What is going to happen is that you are likely to receive a letter asking for your version of the events. Northern will then decide how to proceed. None of the reasons you provided is a valid excuse for not presenting a valid ticket on demand. Can you prove that the ticket was checked onboard?

I can prove it insofar as I can describe the conductor and give the exact time, date and station where it happened. That's all, sadly.

Also,I completely accept that I don't have a valid excuse and I'm willing to pay a fine - I just desperately need to make sure this doesn't go to court. I'm basically asking if that's likely to happen.

 

[bb21]

This is no good unfortunately, unless you are sure that the guard remembers checking your ticket and can back you up, which is extremely unlikely. If you are prosecuted under the Byelaws, conviction should not result in a criminal record. You can of course try and settle out of court although it is not guaranteed to be accepted.

 

[Dr. Linus]

This is no good unfortunately, unless you are sure that the guard remembers checking your ticket and can back you up, which is extremely unlikely. If you are prosecuted under the Byelaws, conviction should not result in a criminal record. You can of course try and settle out of court although it is not guaranteed to be accepted.

So what would a conviction under byelaws result in?

 

[ANorthernGuard]

Hi,

I appreciate you all must have seen many threads like this but I couldn't see any that accurately represent my situation.

A few hours ago I boarded a train at Wigan North Western after purchasing a ticket by cash at the ticket office. Almost immediately after departing my ticket was checked by the conductor on board. Unfortunately, along the way I threw some rubbish away from food I'd eaten, along with some old tickets, and my current ticket must have accidentally been thrown away with it, as when I arrived at Liverpool Lime Street I produced my ticket and the inspector pointed out it was dated for the day before. I couldn't find my current ticket and realised I had thrown away the wrong one. I willingly admitted this and the inspector took my details and said I'd be sent a letter to reply to with explanation. I asked to go back onto the train to look through the bin but this was refused. So the evidence I have is:

- My ticket was checked and verified on the train and I can give the exact time and station at which this happened
- I can produce bank statements that show that I make this journey three times a week and always purchase a ticket (although on occasion, such as today, I paid in cash, won't be doing that again!)
- I produced a valid ticket for my outgoing journey the day before and offered to go and find my ticket for today
- I willingly admitted my mistake and in my reply I will happily own up to any out-of-court fines deemed necessary

What do you think will be the outcome? This is the first time this has happened to me with Northern Rail, although when I was 16 I did receive an on the spot Merseyrail fare for a genuine mistake regarding how far my pass covered me.

My main worry is that this will proceed to court, as I work in a school and this would be potentially life-changing in terms of seriousness if I was to receive a criminal record.

So can anyone help shed some light on what may happen/what I should do? The reason I feel this deserves its own thread is that my ticket was actually checked and verified almost immediately after boarding. Thanks.

with respect, how many tickets do you think a conductor checks in a day, I check hundreds so unless you asked the conductor at the time to verify you had a ticket we wouldn't have a hope of remembering, to be blunt I even though you have been very unlucky you really don't have much of an argument in your defence, all the points you mentioned anyone can say and I am pretty sure the Prosecutions will not take that into account. My best advice would be when they ask for your side be honest and offer to settle out of court.

 

[Dr. Linus]

with respect, how many tickets do you think a conductor checks in a day, I check hundreds so unless you asked the conductor at the time to verify you had a ticket we wouldn't have a hope of remembering, to be blunt I even though you have been very unlucky you really don't have much of an argument in your defence, all the points you mentioned anyone can say and I am pretty sure the Prosecutions will not take that into account. My best advice would be when they ask for your side be honest and offer to settle out of court.

I certainly don't expect the conductor to remember but surely there'll be some kind of rota which could verify that a conductor was aboard that train? This was the only train of the day from Wigan to Lime Street so surely the guard would at least remember the service and could verify that he was on it, presuming this isn't too far down the line in terms of time?

Yes, I plan to just explain eveything as honestly as I have here - I'm going to make it clear from the start that I'm entirely responsible and freely admit that, but I want to do my very best to convince NR that this was unintentional and offer to pay literally whatever they want out of court as a goodwill gesture, which hopefully together will be enough to keep me out of court.

Does that seem likely?
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---
As a side note, the whole frustrating irony of this is that if I had chosen to, I could happily have not purchased a ticket for the last 6 months or so such is the lack of ticket checking in and out of Northern Rail stations, and I've been throwing away a small fortune on it on the off chance I'd be checked. The one day I don't have a ticket is the one day they get themselves in gear, it's so infuriating!
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---
As a side note, the whole frustrating irony of this is that if I had chosen to, I could happily have not purchased a ticket for the last 6 months or so such is the lack of ticket checking in and out of Northern Rail stations, and I've been throwing away a small fortune on it on the off chance I'd be checked. The one day I don't have a ticket is the one day they get themselves in gear, it's so infuriating!

 

[323235]

You are not throwing good money away by buying tickets, you are paying for a service which you use and fulfilling your legal obligation as a passenger, whether your ticket is checked or not.

 

[Dr. Linus]

You are not throwing good money away by buying tickets, you are paying for a service which you use and fulfilling your legal obligation as a passenger, whether your ticket is checked or not.

Well, I suppose what I mean is that it has often felt like it until today. It just somehow feels unjust that this has happened today, when I loyally pay every time without being asked and don't get the chance to prove this to a conductor or inspector, which somehow makes it feel more "worth it". But I fully accept that it's just really bad luck, I'm just pretty upset about it.

 

[snail]

Well, I suppose what I mean is that it has often felt like it until today. It just somehow feels unjust that this has happened today, when I loyally pay every time without being asked and don't get the chance to prove this to a conductor or inspector, which somehow makes it feel more "worth it". But I fully accept that it's just really bad luck, I'm just pretty upset about it.

You have two choices in your approach to Northern
1. Very sorry, but I made a mistake in losing away my ticket on the train and I would like to apologise and pay whatever is due, or
2. I've paid you all this money in fares for nothing and this is the treatment I get.

Which would you prefer if you were the train company?

 

[Greenback]

Sadly, Dr Linus, even if it can be proven that there was a conductor on the train, that doesn;t really help as it does not prove that you had a ticket or that it was checked and found to be OK. Even if you could prove that, I don't see that it will help much, as it is still an offenc ethat you could not produce a valid ticket at the end of the journey.

I know it's frustrating. I once stupidly threw away the return half of a Swansea - Newcastle ticket, which cost me a single to get home, more than £50 IIRC. It didn't, of course, make any differenc ethat I had bought a ticket, I couldn't produce one so I had to pay again.

Unfortunately, there's not much you can do about it at the moment. You will have to wait for the letter, see what it says, and then respond to it. We will be able to give more and better advice at that time.

 

[6Gman]

Apologies if this is considered unhelpful by the moderators, or the OP, but the question the TOC might reasonably ask would be:

"You say you threw away your ticket with some food refuse. Where and how did you dispose of this material?"

Are there bins on the unit you used?

 

[Dr. Linus]

You have two choices in your approach to Northern
1. Very sorry, but I made a mistake in losing away my ticket on the train and I would like to apologise and pay whatever is due, or
2. I've paid you all this money in fares for nothing and this is the treatment I get.

Which would you prefer if you were the train company?

I was never suggesting that I would say the second option to them, I was just venting my frustration on here. I understand that it's my fault and that I can't prove my innocence, but it's all very aggravating for me as I'm potentially in legal trouble despite making a real effort to allot a certain amount of money per week (a significant amount) to train journeys even though I can't even remember the last time my ticket was properly checked rather than just glancing at it and not reading what's on the ticket. I'm just going to approach it objectively when I have to write the letter and hope they don't see fit to make an example of me.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

Apologies if this is considered unhelpful by the moderators, or the OP, but the question the TOC might reasonably ask would be:

"You say you threw away your ticket with some food refuse. Where and how did you dispose of this material?"

Are there bins on the unit you used?

Yes, I actually asked to go and search them. But they argued that even if I found it I couldn't prove it was mine, which is fair enough.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

Sadly, Dr Linus, even if it can be proven that there was a conductor on the train, that doesn;t really help as it does not prove that you had a ticket or that it was checked and found to be OK. Even if you could prove that, I don't see that it will help much, as it is still an offenc ethat you could not produce a valid ticket at the end of the journey.

I know it's frustrating. I once stupidly threw away the return half of a Swansea - Newcastle ticket, which cost me a single to get home, more than £50 IIRC. It didn't, of course, make any differenc ethat I had bought a ticket, I couldn't produce one so I had to pay again.

Unfortunately, there's not much you can do about it at the moment. You will have to wait for the letter, see what it says, and then respond to it. We will be able to give more and better advice at that time.

Thanks for your sympathy, and sorry to hear about your situation. I'm just so terrified by this. The idea of having a criminal record is probably my worst nightmare.

 

[Wath Yard]

Yes, I actually asked to go and search them. But they argued that even if I found it I couldn't prove it was mine, which is fair enough.

You really shouldn't have accepted that. Tickets have the station and time printed on them. If you purchased the ticket immediately before travel and nobody else arrived at Lime St without a ticket on that service then that should be proof enough the ticket was yours.

 

[Dr. Linus]

You really shouldn't have accepted that. Tickets have the station and time printed on them. If you purchased the ticket immediately before travel and nobody else arrived at Lime St without a ticket on that service then that should be proof enough the ticket was yours.

Yes, I suppose. A positive sign is that the ticket inspector was quite nice to me and did make note of me asking to go and get my ticket, and took very detailed notes about where my ticket was checked. I suppose it's possible that she went and spoke to the conductor afterwards and checked that, as he was only a few yards away - or at the very least the powers that be will have recieved quite a balanced report before they contact me.

However, she did ask me that question which I've seen on here since as a common and cheap trick to make you look guilty "is it fair to say that if I hadn't stopped you, you would have completed this journey without a valid ticket?" I had no choice but to say "yes, but unintentionally". At least she didn't say "without paying" which would have probably been worse. At no point did the inspector suggest that I hadn't paid. Fingers crossed.

 

[Greenback]

Thanks for your sympathy, and sorry to hear about your situation. I'm just so terrified by this. The idea of having a criminal record is probably my worst nightmare.

I can't say with any certainty, but it may be unlikely that you get to taken to court, or receive a criminal record. As I said, just wait and se what the letter brings, though it may take a while.

Even if you were to get a criminal record, how relevant is this to your role? In my organisation, having a criminal record, or gaining one whilst employed, does not automatically mean that you will be dismissed, particularly if it is not for something like robbery, arson or assault.

 

[SussexMan]

My main worry is that this will proceed to court, as I work in a school and this would be potentially life-changing in terms of seriousness if I was to receive a criminal record.

A byelaw offence is not a recordable offence and won't appear on a CRB.

...and even if it did (which it won't) then why would it be life-changing? You can't be sacked on the back of it. To do that your employer would have to show that your dismissal was a fair one. Organisations which do CRBs also have to have a written policy on the employment of people with criminal records. Don't panic about losing your job or anything!

 

[Dr. Linus]

I'm so grateful for the last few posts, thank you all. Is it absolutely certain that even if I go to court it won't end up on a CRB?

And thanks Greenback for the reassurance... I'm going down to Wigan tomorrow to get the name of the conductor who was on the train, and I'll also ask to speak to the woman who served me yesterday.

Even if they say no to these things I can at least get the supervisor to make a note of the fact that I've been down to try and get some evidence, and I'll include this in my letter. Surely NR will see that these aren't the actions of someone who never bought a ticket?

I was also thinking of sending a letter immediately, before they contact me, just to demonstrate how serious I am about keeping this out of court. Does that strike others here as a good idea?

Many thanks.

 

[34D]

I'm so grateful for the last few posts, thank you all. Is it absolutely certain that even if I go to court it won't end up on a CRB?

And thanks Greenback for the reassurance... I'm going down to Wigan tomorrow to get the name of the conductor who was on the train, and I'll also ask to speak to the woman who served me yesterday.

Even if they say no to these things I can at least get the supervisor to make a note of the fact that I've been down to try and get some evidence, and I'll include this in my letter. Surely NR will see that these aren't the actions of someone who never bought a ticket?

I was also thinking of sending a letter immediately, before they contact me, just to demonstrate how serious I am about keeping this out of court. Does that strike others here as a good idea?

Many thanks.

I don't think I'd advise trying to find the ticket inspector or onboard conductor.

Its hard to see what relevance a letter would serve. If you have been 100% truthful, and CCTV from on board the train (only some Northern units have CCTV) then _possibly_ a letter or email to customer services may result in any onboard CCTV being saved for later examination.

Can you describe where you were sat, and where the bin was in relation to your seat?

 

[island]

I think all this stuff about bins being searched, conductors being asked, and so on is not of the greatest help, as an offence appears to have been committed of not showing a ticket on demand, which is a strict liability offence.

 

[snail]

Yes, I think you should stop thinking about finding Conductors and searching bins and accept what ANorthernGuard and others say.

You had a ticket, you lost it and it may now, unfortunately, cost you extra to remedy the situation. Northern will hear many stories like yours, you need to make your account concise and believable.

Telling them how many times you have travelled without getting your ticket checked means nothing in this instance; telling them that the RPI gave you the benefit of the doubt in letting you go back to the train may help in convincing them you made a genuine mistake.

 

[jon0844]

Yes, I actually asked to go and search them. But they argued that even if I found it I couldn't prove it was mine, which is fair enough.

Well, surely fingerprints would be all over the tickets - given they're suitably shiny?

But, I guess they'd need to find the ticket and then do the necessary checks and they're obviously not going to do that.

 

[bb21]

... and nobody else arrived at Lime St without a ticket on that service ...

This is highly unlikely in my experience.

Is it absolutely certain that even if I go to court it won't end up on a CRB?

If you are prosecuted under the Byelaws then conviction should not result in a criminal record, however if you are prosecuted under the Regulation of Railways Act then conviction undoubtedly will give you a criminal record.

Nevertheless I echo Greenback's analysis in Post 18 that you are unlikely to be prosecuted under the Regulation of Railways Act for a first offence unless you seriously incriminate yourself. A conviction under the RoRA requires intent to be proven beyond reasonable doubt.

I don't think I'd advise trying to find the ticket inspector or onboard conductor.

I think all this stuff about bins being searched, conductors being asked, and so on is not of the greatest help, as an offence appears to have been committed of not showing a ticket on demand, which is a strict liability offence.

I agree with both. Ask yourself, what do you expect to achieve by your proposed actions and how would it really help your case? How would Northern view these actions?

Well, surely fingerprints would be all over the tickets - given they're suitably shiny?

I doubt that the ticket is still there.

 

[jon0844]

I think if the OP had been able to go back on the train and fish out the ticket from a bin, they'd surely not then say 'that could belong to anyone?' as that would mean someone else not having a ticket and being caught. Also, how many valid tickets are likely to be thrown away on a train? What would the odds be of that happening?!

My advice to the OP and anyone else is that when doing some spring cleaning of tickets in your wallet, either double and triple check what you're throwing away - or do it before you travel (or when you get home).

With all tickets looking quite similar, I've nearly made stupid mistakes so now I'd simply never do it. If you've had old tickets in your pocket for weeks/months (years in the case of my wife) then what difference does another few hours make?

 

[bb21]

I think if the OP had been able to go back on the train and fish out the ticket from a bin, they'd surely not then say 'that could belong to anyone?' as that would mean someone else not having a ticket and being caught. Also, how many valid tickets are likely to be thrown away on a train? What would the odds be of that happening?!

At the time, possibly, but then as you say it also depends on other factors.

It is all academic now anyway.