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Restrictions on a disabled railcard

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Dave1987

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Hello as a driver I have no training on tickets what so ever. I have noticed recently that a disabled railcard has very few restrictions on them yet every other railcards have loads of restrictions on when holders can use them. Surely this is positive discrimination? I would have thought that every railcard would have the same restrictions? Is there a specific reason that the restrictions are less?

Before anyone accuses me of being anti disabled, I am not! I am just curious as to why.
 
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Peter Mugridge

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As I understand it, this is to reflect that some categories of disabled people will not find travel as easy as the users of other railcards. For a similar reason the disabled card also allows a discount for a second person travelling with the holder; this is to allow for when a carer has to travel with the disabled person.
 

34D

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One thing is that the routeing guide doesn't apply to disabled railcard holders, to cater for platforms/steps/etc being at certain locations.
 

Be3G

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My assumption was that it's because whereas an able-bodied person might be able to opt for an alternative mode of transport, a disabled person might have a more restricted choice (e.g. a blind person isn't going to have much luck driving). The railcard's lack of restrictions perhaps therefore recognises that a disabled traveller might need to travel at peak times whilst the train provides the only practical option.
 

johnnychips

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It is a measure of a civilised society that we compensate people for the inconveniences of their disability by making things easier in other ways.
 

Butts

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It is a measure of a civilised society that we compensate people for the inconveniences of their disability by making things easier in other ways.

I agree with that to a point, but I don't see why it should be extended to First Class benefits that other Railcard holders don't get. Probably a question of "numbers"
 

Robsignals

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It's very existence can be called positive discrimination...and quite right too, we don't get many breaks in this "everyone for themselves" world. A strict analysis will say we much prefer to travel on quiet trains and we can be relied on to behave well in First Class or anywhere else, secretly I think it shows the railway 'family' has a heart and cares about those who've had a poor deal from life. I'm not very obviously disabled but in practice I could get away with almost anything as staff don't want to appear to be picking on a "Raspberry Ripple" or possibly they think I'm too dim to even bother trying to explain restrictions to!!! I don't take advantage of course, well not deliberately, well not often...Anyway if you want to be disabled I'll happily swap.
 
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As I understand it, this is to reflect that some categories of disabled people will not find travel as easy as the users of other railcards. For a similar reason the disabled card also allows a discount for a second person travelling with the holder; this is to allow for when a carer has to travel with the disabled person.

As a disabled person (in a wheelchair), I think your interpretation is correct.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---
I agree with that to a point, but I don't see why it should be extended to First Class benefits that other Railcard holders don't get. Probably a question of "numbers"

Hmm? Not sure if your post is badly phrased? :o
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---
It is a measure of a civilised society that we compensate people for the inconveniences of their disability by making things easier in other ways.

Well said:D
 

bnm

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I agree with that to a point, but I don't see why it should be extended to First Class benefits that other Railcard holders don't get. Probably a question of "numbers"

16-25 Railcard gives discount on 1st Class Advance Purchase. Senior Railcard gives discount on all 1st Class fares.

Of the national railcards only Family & Friends doesn't offer a discount on any 1st Class fares.
 

TUC

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One thing is that the routeing guide doesn't apply to disabled railcard holders, to cater for platforms/steps/etc being at certain locations.

I wasn't aware of that. Just to clarify, is it that the routing guide doesn't apply at all or is it an expectation that discretion should be used to overlook off-route travel where necessary to avoid access problems?
 

Butts

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It's very existence can be called positive discrimination...and quite right too, we don't get many breaks in this "everyone for themselves" world. A strict analysis will say we much prefer to travel on quiet trains and we can be relied on to behave well in First Class or anywhere else, secretly I think it shows the railway 'family' has a heart and cares about those who've had a poor deal from life. I'm not very obviously disabled but in practice I could get away with almost anything as staff don't want to appear to be picking on a "Raspberry Ripple" or possibly they think I'm too dim to even bother trying to explain restrictions to!!! I don't take advantage of course, well not deliberately, well not often...Anyway if you want to be disabled I'll happily swap.

"Raspberry Ripple" that made me chuckle - I have not heard that for years !!

On reflection I retract my earlier post about 1st Class - it's bad enough in 2nd Class for an able bodied person let alone trying to get in via a wheelchair.

Good to see you have a sense of humour :p
 

wintonian

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I wasn't aware of that. Just to clarify, is it that the routing guide doesn't apply at all or is it an expectation that discretion should be used to overlook off-route travel where necessary to avoid access problems?

The routing guide does apply to holders of a disabled persons railcard, but what the RG does say is that discretion should be used where the journey would otherwise be difficult.

Edit: This is what it actually says in section A:

DISABLED TRAVELLERS
Train Operating Companies may make special arrangements for disabled
customers and an accompanying passenger via the Disabled Persons
Reporting System (DPRS). Provided these arrangements are made in
accordance with the procedures laid down in the Manual, they will override
the requirements of the Routeing Guide. All staff involved in revenue
protection duties will be advised, on each individual occasion, of customers
who are exempted under these arrangements.

I don't know what the manual says though or what each TOc's arrangements are so I can only assume that not all disabled persons are exempted from all parts, so I suppose its a discretion of sorts..
 
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All Line Rover

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I agree with that to a point, but I don't see why it should be extended to First Class benefits that other Railcard holders don't get. Probably a question of "numbers"

Given how busy Standard Class can be on certain trains, and how uncomfortable that must be for certain disabled travellers (e.g. blind, in a wheelchair), I think it's only reasonable to give them a discount on the full range of First Class fares.

The only think that surprises me about the Disabled Railcard is how many people qualify for it. If you are partially sighted or use a hearing aid, you'll qualify for the same range of discounts as someone with locked-in syndrome! Is that really justified? I'd support a two-tier system - one Disabled Railcard for people with partial disabilities and one Disabled Railcard for people with severe disabilities (and the latter should give even bigger discounts, say 50%, along with free travel for a companion, considering how difficult getting around must be for such people).
 

Dave1987

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It's very existence can be called positive discrimination...and quite right too, we don't get many breaks in this "everyone for themselves" world. A strict analysis will say we much prefer to travel on quiet trains and we can be relied on to behave well in First Class or anywhere else, secretly I think it shows the railway 'family' has a heart and cares about those who've had a poor deal from life. I'm not very obviously disabled but in practice I could get away with almost anything as staff don't want to appear to be picking on a "Raspberry Ripple" or possibly they think I'm too dim to even bother trying to explain restrictions to!!! I don't take advantage of course, well not deliberately, well not often...Anyway if you want to be disabled I'll happily swap.

Don't agree that positive discrimination is right as that creates resentment like with free disabled parking in pay & display car parks. And some disabled ppl cannot be relied on to behave in first class in fact quite the opposite! I do as much as I can for disabled passengers but I don't think the disabled railcard should get money off peak fares. Especially when their fellow commuters can not get any money off their peak fares but that is just my opinion. One of our guards had a lady in a wheelchair complain about the appalling service she had received as the ramp was 30 secs late in arriving to let her off the train, when the guard asked to see her ticket, she didnt have one!!
 

CheekyBandit

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I wasn't aware of that. Just to clarify, is it that the routing guide doesn't apply at all or is it an expectation that discretion should be used to overlook off-route travel where necessary to avoid access problems?

I think discretion was used to take a wheechair user from Maidstone East to Hollingbourne - going to Ashford International and back again as there is no step-free access from the down platform to the exit.
 

island

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16-25 Railcard gives discount on 1st Class Advance Purchase. Senior Railcard gives discount on all 1st Class fares.

Of the national railcards only Family & Friends doesn't offer a discount on any 1st Class fares.

Two Together Railcards are also valid for all 1st class fares, and Gold Cards have a special £5 supplement for 1st class travel.
 

wintonian

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Two Together Railcards are also valid for all 1st class fares, and Gold Cards have a special £5 supplement for 1st class travel.

Discounted first class fares are also available with the HM Forces railcard, so by no means is it just the disabled persons railcard, in fact it would seem that any discrimination would be against children and young people rather than in favour of any one particular group.

I haven't counted the Network Card as I have classed it as a local railcard for this purpose.
 

SickyNicky

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I know it's slightly off topic, but let me give you a real example of where a disabled person travels off route.

A blind friend of mine travels between Hereford and London occasionally. The quickest way to do this is often via Crewe, but this is not a permitted route. Permitted ways to go are either through the Cotswolds (of which there are only few direct trains) or via Newport, South Wales.

However my friend has a guide dog and there is no easily accessible place to exercise the dog at Newport (or at least, not one that he knows the way to). At Crewe there is a patch of grass just to the right of the station entrance, and my friend knows how to get to it, because it's a regular change point from Hereford to all sorts of places.

He can book assistance via Crewe for this reason. Train managers seem to be aware and no-one has ever queried it.

For people that are blind, or otherwise have a disability that precludes them from driving, the train is the only realistic alternative. As they have no choice, I think a discount is not only perfectly reasonable but that it actually enables people who are disabled to live their life. To that end, it should extend to all tickets right across the board.
 

maniacmartin

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Note that TOCs may offer discretion to those who are disabled (who may not necessarily be disabled railcard holders).. As far as I know, there is no detail as to how much discretion they should offer detailed in the Routeing Guide. Usually this means letting passengers double back and such, so that they can interchange at bigger stations with lifts etc. I doubt the same discretion would apply to all DSB railcard holders though; e.g. those who only meet the eligibility because they have a hearing aid could still be expected to use staircases for example.

Looking at the eligibility of a disabled railcard, I always assumed it was intended that anyone who couldn't feasibly drive or travel by other means got a discount.

Nearly every type of railcard has different restrictions on when it is valid and if there are minimum fares, and even then individual TOCs may offer "discretion" beyond those restrictions, such as Virgin's rule on Y-P-discounted off-peak tickets being valid at peak on their services
 

Robsignals

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"Raspberry Ripple" that made me chuckle - I have not heard that for years !!

On reflection I retract my earlier post about 1st Class - it's bad enough in 2nd Class for an able bodied person let alone trying to get in via a wheelchair.

Good to see you have a sense of humour :p

Thanks, but that rather illustrates the general prejudice against the disabled, (I prefer difabled for 'differently abled'), I want to be just like you but circumstances beyond my control prevent that - if I wasn't able to laugh at all the insults (deliberate or accidental) I'd cry, scream and generally go insane. Yes 1st Class coaches usually have plenty of space so shouldn't I be allowed to use them on a Standard ticket? In fact why should I have to pay at all...
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---
Don't agree that positive discrimination is right as that creates resentment like with free disabled parking in pay & display car parks. And some disabled ppl cannot be relied on to behave in first class in fact quite the opposite! I do as much as I can for disabled passengers but I don't think the disabled railcard should get money off peak fares. Especially when their fellow commuters can not get any money off their peak fares but that is just my opinion. One of our guards had a lady in a wheelchair complain about the appalling service she had received as the ramp was 30 secs late in arriving to let her off the train, when the guard asked to see her ticket, she didnt have one!!

Resentment is one thing I rarely encounter, most people are simply relieved at not being disabled and are generally sympathetic if clueless. Free parking (I don't drive) is a recognition that Badge holders can't walk far and have to use a car, you can choose to park elsewhere and walk or not use a car at all.

You seem to have a very negative view of disabled or more correctly now 'challenged' people, as I said we want to be just like anyone else and that can include what you consider to be bad behaviour. Or possibly the person has exceeded their capacity for absorbing the endless (unintended?) insults and (ignorant?) stupidity we constantly experience.

Sometimes I need to travel at peak times to a hospital or similar important appointment but I really prefer travelling at quiet times.
 

bb21

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In fact why should I have to pay at all...

I do not wish to start a side debate about this however I do believe that if someone is severely disabled, then he/she should not have to pay to use public transport at all. I am not going to go in to the details as to why I believe so, suffice to say that I think it is the hallmark of a civilised society that we look after the least fortunate. The severely disabled are only ever a tiny proportion of the population so the cost of doing so would be negligible.
 

Butts

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Thanks, but that rather illustrates the general prejudice against the disabled, (I prefer difabled for 'differently abled'), I want to be just like you but circumstances beyond my control prevent that - if I wasn't able to laugh at all the insults (deliberate or accidental) I'd cry, scream and generally go insane. Yes 1st Class coaches usually have plenty of space so shouldn't I be allowed to use them on a Standard ticket? In fact why should I have to pay at all...
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---


Resentment is one thing I rarely encounter, most people are simply relieved at not being disabled and are generally sympathetic if clueless. Free parking (I don't drive) is a recognition that Badge holders can't walk far and have to use a car, you can choose to park elsewhere and walk or not use a car at all.

You seem to have a very negative view of disabled or more correctly now 'challenged' people, as I said we want to be just like anyone else and that can include what you consider to be bad behaviour. Or possibly the person has exceeded their capacity for absorbing the endless (unintended?) insults and (ignorant?) stupidity we constantly experience.

Sometimes I need to travel at peak times to a hospital or similar important appointment but I really prefer travelling at quiet times.



If someone is open and upfront and actually calls you a "Raspberry" you may find they will not be the ones to adopt a patronising stance but actually offer practical assistance IF required. The "pat on the head" brigade are probably far more culpable of offering little or unwelcome interventions when not really needed.
 

steadmane

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Whatever your opinions on the disabled and whether they should be allowed such outrageous discounting because of their debilitations I think it's surprising that the railcards don't come with an accompanying photocard. As most railway staff give DR holders a wide berth it's incredible to me that on the occasions that they are requested to show it there is as little security preventing misuse as there is a Network Railcard even though the application procedure to obtain one is more complex. The lack of photocard really astounds me.
 

Bungle73

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TYes 1st Class coaches usually have plenty of space so shouldn't I be allowed to use them on a Standard ticket?
Why should you be able to? Why should you get access to all the benefits of FC when everyone else has to pay extra?

Modern trains, in Standard, all have space dedicated for wheelchair users, and also seats with extra legroom for non-wheelchair using disabled people.

In fact why should I have to pay at all...
Why not? Everyone else has to.
 

Dave1987

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Resentment is one thing I rarely encounter, most people are simply relieved at not being disabled and are generally sympathetic if clueless. Free parking (I don't drive) is a recognition that Badge holders can't walk far and have to use a car, you can choose to park elsewhere and walk or not use a car at all.

You seem to have a very negative view of disabled or more correctly now 'challenged' people, as I said we want to be just like anyone else and that can include what you consider to be bad behaviour. Or possibly the person has exceeded their capacity for absorbing the endless (unintended?) insults and (ignorant?) stupidity we constantly experience.

Sometimes I need to travel at peak times to a hospital or similar important appointment but I really prefer travelling at quiet times.

I don't have a negative view of the disabled, in fact some of our regular disabled passengers are lovely and I love helping them out as much as I can. But we have one particular disabled passenger who thinks it is his god given right to travel to even though he doesn't buy a ticket. He say because he is disabled he has the right to travel without paying and if we dont put him on he starts shouting we are discriminating against him! I think this is why I have such a negative view against some disabled ppl.
 

WSW

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...we have one particular disabled passenger who thinks it is his god given right to travel to even though he doesn't buy a ticket. He say because he is disabled he has the right to travel without paying and if we dont put him on he starts shouting we are discriminating against him! I think this is why I have such a negative view against some disabled ppl.

That guy is out of order and does disabled folk no good at all. Genuine 100% accessibility is far more important than any discount for us (our son has to use a wheelchair). This is true for anywhere, not just trains. As it is, our wheelchair is "too long" (by 7cm) so we can't travel at all by train (or bus). So being utterly selfish, I'd rather see disabled railcards abolished and the money save spent on slightly bigger space on trains. at least on new -build trains, so perhaps in 20-30 years time, all wheelchair users will be permitted to use the railways, even (at our age) it'll be too late for us.

Steve
 

AndyLandy

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It is a measure of a civilised society that we compensate people for the inconveniences of their disability by making things easier in other ways.

Quoted for Truth.

It's entirely appropriate that we have a system in-place to facilitate travel for disabled people, particularly those who have no option but to use public transport.

Don't forget that it's still just a percentage discount, so DPR 1st class tickets are still more expensive than DPR Std and probably still more expensive than an un-discounted Std fare. The same is probably true of peak tickets, discounted Anytimes are still more expensive than discounted Offpeaks.

Actually, on a side note, what are the requirements to qualify for a DP railcard, in particular for eyesight? I've never particularly though of myself as disabled, but my vision is still poor and it's unlikely that I would be able to drive. I wonder whether that would qualify?
 

wintonian

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Actually, on a side note, what are the requirements to qualify for a DP railcard, in particular for eyesight? I've never particularly though of myself as disabled, but my vision is still poor and it's unlikely that I would be able to drive. I wonder whether that would qualify?

Why don't you look it up?
 

Paule23

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As a holder of a Disabled Railcard I am very happy with the range of discounts I am offered, particularly the fact it includes peak fares!

I suffer from hearing loss and wears hearing aid, I'm not convinced that should entitle me to reduced price travel but if someone offers it to me I am not going to refuse. Maybe it's Society's way of showing sympathy for my hearing loss (it's not very nice missing over half of all conversations, particularly on a noisy train) and I'm very grateful for it.
 
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