Southern add 40 vehicles to order

[tbtc]

Did I hear somewhere Great Western were going to get new trains instead of class 319s or did I imagine it?

Also bit off topic but what will happen to trains going to Banbury from Oxford (stopping services) if electrification ends at Oxford? Likewise with Newbury as I thought Newbury was on the main line not a terminus? I'm not great with the geography of that area though

The suggestion is that 110mph EMUs will be required for the Thames Valley services.

Not sure about the token Banbury service (something that Chiltern could provide?) - everyone seems fascinated with encouraging cars out of Oxford by putting more trains on the Bicester line but with little thought about the local stations on the Banbury route - you raise a good point here.

Newbury gets a half hourly shuttle from Reading IIRC.

 

[RobShipway]

The suggestion is that 110mph EMUs will be required for the Thames Valley services.

Not sure about the token Banbury service (something that Chiltern could provide?) - everyone seems fascinated with encouraging cars out of Oxford by putting more trains on the Bicester line but with little thought about the local stations on the Banbury route - you raise a good point here.

Newbury gets a half hourly shuttle from Reading IIRC.

There are some services that have started from London Paddington as commuter services which terminate at Newbury. The only trains that go furher than Newbury on that line are the
HSTs, that go down to Devon and Cornwall.

 

[fgwrich]

The suggestion is that 110mph EMUs will be required for the Thames Valley services.

Not sure about the token Banbury service (something that Chiltern could provide?) - everyone seems fascinated with encouraging cars out of Oxford by putting more trains on the Bicester line but with little thought about the local stations on the Banbury route - you raise a good point here.

Newbury gets a half hourly shuttle from Reading IIRC.

It seems that the DfT is now looking at 125 MPH EMUs for the GWML services now. Which suspicously sounds like another Hitachi product - and no, im not talking about those Javelins.

 

[Class377/5]

Based on the current and proposed services they'll be 3 or 4 types of service to require EMUs after North TPE electrification.

Intercity e.g. Liverpool-Newcastle only calling at Manchester Victoria and Huddersfield between Liverpool and Leeds.

Local commuter e.g. Huddersfield-Leeds stopping services.

Regional express e.g. Manchester Airport to York

Regional e.g. Manchester to Leeds/Selby with more local stops than the Regional express

So one type of EMU with a standard spec won't suit all services. With the possibility of some routes going to East Coast or Cross Country I think that would make it even more likely to have 4 different classes of electric units on TPE routes.

So that rules out 365's for TPE unless your going to order a new fleet for the GN. Everyone would be happier with keeping 365 where they are and new EMUs for TPE.

 

[D365]

The suggestion is that 110mph EMUs will be required for the Thames Valley services.

So that rules out 365's for TPE unless your going to order a new fleet for the GN. Everyone would be happier with keeping 365 where they are and new EMUs for TPE.

Do we want to keep 365s? Yay! But I'm suddenly wondering why the Thameslink 700 Desiro Cities aren't being specced for more than 100mph. Would 110mph be helpful on ECML, or MML/BML if upgraded?

 

[Class377/5]

Do we want to keep 365s? Yay! But I'm suddenly wondering why the Thameslink 700 Desiro Cities aren't being specced for more than 100mph. Would 110mph be helpful on ECML, or MML/BML if upgraded?

BML can only be over 100mph when you go AC only. That's not expected anytime soon. Plus there's limited scope for 110 currently with at best 90 being more the higher norm. There's not enough space between some stations to get to that speed especially when you get stoppers in front.

However this idea of 110mph on MML is not that important. Currently a 377 can share track with a faster 222/HST and still do station stops due to its quicker acceleration. Its needs a bit of room first but its the acceleration that counts. 377 vs 319 on AC and 377 to Bedford with same calling pattern can beat the 319 by about 10mins. The 700s will be another jump ahead from the 377.

However 110mph on the ECML may be useful but again its acceleration that counts.

 

[Eagle]

Also bit off topic but what will happen to trains going to Banbury from Oxford (stopping services) if electrification ends at Oxford? Likewise with Newbury as I thought Newbury was on the main line not a terminus? I'm not great with the geography of that area though

But electrification won't end at Oxford. Oxford to Nuneaton is getting wired as part of this electric spine thing.

 

[tbtc]

However this idea of 110mph on MML is not that important. Currently a 377 can share track with a faster 222/HST and still do station stops due to its quicker acceleration

May be a difference on the MML once EMUs replace the diesels north of Bedford though

 

[Skimble19]

However 110mph on the ECML may be useful but again its acceleration that counts.

I'd rather the slows north of Hitchin were upgraded to 100mph first though! You can really feel the difference in speed on a 365 if you use both the fast non-stop and the slow services from KGX to somewhere like Biggleswade.

From a personal point of view, I'd also much rather we kept the 365s than get a new fleet. The new 700 class look far too similar to 317s for my liking.

 

[D365]

May be a difference on the MML once EMUs replace the diesels north of Bedford though

Rolling stock hasn't been confirmed, but it will probably end up being IEP, Pendolinos (for future tilting?) or Thor'd 222s - although there aren't enough and the panto trailers don't seem to be coming. Going slightly off-topic (in the direction of several on the Infrastructure sub-forum), hyper-powered EMUs, perhaps in the form of 6-car 700s, would also be useful for Moorgate services, especially if extended south (). Might help at Welwyn North.

ALERT: Way off-topic and imaginary, someone please return us to normal flow?
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

I'd rather the slows north of Hitchin were upgraded to 100mph first though! You can really feel the difference in speed on a 365 if you use both the fast non-stop and the slow services from KGX to somewhere like Biggleswade.

From a personal point of view, I'd also much rather we kept the 365s than get a new fleet. The new 700 class look far too similar to 317s for my liking.

The former shouldn't be that hard, surely? I believe the 365s are here to stay for King's Cross peaks and Cambridge/King's Lynn fasts if this IEP batch doesn't turn up - proper refurb starting next year!

I don't see how 700s [impressions] look like 317s - please elaborate.

 

[Skimble19]

I don't see how 700s [impressions] look like 317s - please elaborate.

Check out the number of windows, the size of the pillars etc. and compare that to 317s, then look at a 365. If you enjoy sitting next to a nice cream wall then they're going to be great (just like 321s!).

 

[Class377/5]

May be a difference on the MML once EMUs replace the diesels north of Bedford though

Fair point. Tho the acceleration of the 700 are better than any other EMU so quick nip out onto the fast can still be done. That's unless someone offers new super quick off the block EMU.

I'd rather the slows north of Hitchin were upgraded to 100mph first though! You can really feel the difference in speed on a 365 if you use both the fast non-stop and the slow services from KGX to somewhere like Biggleswade.

From a personal point of view, I'd also much rather we kept the 365s than get a new fleet. The new 700 class look far too similar to 317s for my liking.

I think most people would prefer to keep their 365 on the GN. When you say a 700 is like a 317, take it you mean internally? Well the inside should be more a 380 which were light and airy where as my limited travels on 317 always felt enclosed.

Rolling stock hasn't been confirmed, but it will probably end up being IEP, Pendolinos (for future tilting?) or Thor'd 222s - although there aren't enough and the panto trailers don't seem to be coming. Going slightly off-topic (in the direction of several on the Infrastructure sub-forum), hyper-powered EMUs, perhaps in the form of 6-car 700s, would also be useful for Moorgate services, especially if extended south (). Might help at Welwyn North.

The former shouldn't be that hard, surely? I believe the 365s are here to stay for King's Cross peaks and Cambridge/King's Lynn fasts if this IEP batch doesn't turn up - proper refurb starting next year!

I don't see how 700s [impressions] look like 317s - please elaborate.

Thor'd 222 are being reported as dead. Seems the cost of rewiring each carriage is around £500,000 making it far more expensive than originally thought. MML new stock will be interesting but a tilting type train could work wonders. Moorgate's not getting extended. 6 car 700 are an option but we'll have to wait until the next decade to find out what, if anything, will replace the 313s.

 

[northwichcat]

So that rules out 365's for TPE unless your going to order a new fleet for the GN. Everyone would be happier with keeping 365 where they are and new EMUs for TPE.

I'm not saying that 365s are a good idea for TPE, just saying what some sources have reported.

You were saying that 8 units would be spare, which would actually be enough to run either what I categorised as 'regional' or 'regional express'. Not that a micro-fleet would be a good idea.

Most North TPE services will need ample luggage space, even the non-Airport ones serve a lot of university towns and consequently get a lot of luggage on board. Although, the 'regional' ones will probably need a lower emphasis on luggage space. This, alongside the shorter journey time and more frequent stops may well see them get a different class of train to the other TPE services.

 

[sprinterguy]

I think most people would prefer to keep their 365 on the GN. When you say a 700 is like a 317, take it you mean internally? Well the inside should be more a 380 which were light and airy where as my limited travels on 317 always felt enclosed.

There's a big difference though between existing Desiro designs and the Desiro Cities. Present Desiro designs like the 380s and 350s have outward opening swing-plug doors, while the new Desiro Cities will have sliding pocket doors. This means that the windows have to be further away from the doors in order to accomodate the door pockets within the bodywork, like on mark 3 units like the 150s and 317s.

It's not something that concerns me particularly though.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

Based on the current and proposed services they'll be 3 or 4 types of service to require EMUs after North TPE electrification.

Intercity e.g. Liverpool-Newcastle only calling at Manchester Victoria and Huddersfield between Liverpool and Leeds.

Local commuter e.g. Huddersfield-Leeds stopping services.

Regional express e.g. Manchester Airport to York

Regional e.g. Manchester to Leeds/Selby with more local stops than the Regional express

So one type of EMU with a standard spec won't suit all services. With the possibility of some routes going to East Coast or Cross Country I think that would make it even more likely to have 4 different classes of electric units on TPE routes.

It is extremely unlikely that a different design of EMU would be specified for each of these perceived markets though. The only market that is likely to receive a different type of unit would be the local commuter services which would be more ably served by class 319 or 321-type EMUs.

The other three markets are all/will be served by the same services, which are currently grouped under the Transpennine Express moniker: You won't get a different class of train for each of these three different types of services, which aren't so dramatically different from each other that they warrant the luxury of a dedicated micro-fleet for each. One train class will be expected to cater for them all, in the same way as the 185s do now and the 158s did before them. The Transpennine North routes as a whole only add up to a total of around thirty units in the first place.

 

[LNW-GW Joint]

The other three markets are all/will be served by the same services, which are currently grouped under the Transpennine Express moniker: You won't get a different class of train for each of these three different types of services, which aren't so dramatically different from each other that they warrant the luxury of a dedicated micro-fleet for each. One train class will be expected to cater for them all, in the same way as the 185s do now and the 158s did before them. The Transpennine North routes as a whole only add up to a total of around thirty units in the first place.

By the time the TP routes are live, we should also have an electric MML and Coventry-Basingstoke (and possibly the spine and DC conversion thingy).
A sensible rolling-stock strategy would specifiy an overall new inter-regional fleet of decent size rather than pockets of oddball trains for each area.
Not sure if DfT is up to that level of sophistication though...

 

[northwichcat]

It is extremely unlikely that a different design of EMU would be specified for each of these perceived markets though. The only market that is likely to receive a different type of unit would be the local commuter services which would be more ably served by class 319 or 321-type EMUs.

The other three markets are all/will be served by the same services, which are currently grouped under the Transpennine Express moniker: You won't get a different class of train for each of these three different types of services, which aren't so dramatically different from each other that they warrant the luxury of a dedicated micro-fleet for each. One train class will be expected to cater for them all, in the same way as the 185s do now and the 158s did before them. The Transpennine North routes as a whole only add up to a total of around thirty units in the first place.

Like I said earlier in the thread it depends on franchise reorganisation but I think it would actually be possible for three different types of EMU.

If Newcastle-Liverpool goes to EC then an add-on to an existing order for 5 car IEPs would be ideal for that service, with EC already set to get a fleet of IEP.

If Liverpool-Scotland portions go ahead and new EMUs are required then Manchester Airport-York could be part of that order. Either a further 350 order (if 350s remain on Manchester Airport-Scotland) or an order of a newer design of EMU - something like a redesigned 455 that works on AC.

With suggestions that the 319s won't go to Thames Valley that could leave a lot for the North. Given there are over 80 of them it wouldn't be impractical to have two different styles of interiors - one high density commuter and one suitable for longer distances.

 

[sprinterguy]

Like I said earlier in the thread it depends on franchise reorganisation but I think it would actually be possible for three different types of EMU.

Yes, but only due to the rolling stock policies of the incumbent operators. Not because of the perceived different markets on what is presently the TPE network.

With suggestions that the 319s won't go to Thames Valley that could leave a lot for the North. Given there are over 80 of them it wouldn't be impractical to have two different styles of interiors - one high density commuter and one suitable for longer distances.

If all the 319s did wind up in the north then this seems quite feasible, given that the 319s as delivered made provision for different market segments in the different specification of the 319/0 and 319/1 sub-classes.

 

[Class377/5]

I'm not saying that 365s are a good idea for TPE, just saying what some sources have reported.

You were saying that 8 units would be spare, which would actually be enough to run either what I categorised as 'regional' or 'regional express'. Not that a micro-fleet would be a good idea.
.

Not sure of numbers but it would be eight at best. That's including spares so no that many at all nd very unlikely as a mini fleet when everything else is new. However my comments weren't directed at you but rather the info.

There's a big difference though between existing Desiro designs and the Desiro Cities. Present Desiro designs like the 380s and 350s have outward opening swing-plug doors, while the new Desiro Cities will have sliding pocket doors. This means that the windows have to be further away from the doors in order to accomodate the door pockets within the bodywork, like on mark 3 units like the 150s and 317s.

It's not something that concerns me particularly though..

Sorry but fact Desiro City has plug doors is mute. Desiro or Desiro Cities can have either plug or sliding doors. Sliding doors were choosen for Thameslink due to decreased opening and closing times in Core. Even one second per open or close means nearly a minute extra per hour. Everything is being designed to be as quick as possible. Remember the Electrostar comes in both variants but no-one choose it for any current Desiro opition.

The 380s are a half way house between the Desiro and Desiro City designs, it's not a true Desiro in that sense. Same as 379 are part Electrostar, part Adventra.

If Liverpool-Scotland portions go ahead and new EMUs are required then Manchester Airport-York could be part of that order. Either a further 350 order (if 350s remain on Manchester Airport-Scotland) or an order of a newer design of EMU - something like a redesigned 455 that works on AC.

With suggestions that the 319s won't go to Thames Valley that could leave a lot for the North. Given there are over 80 of them it wouldn't be impractical to have two different styles of interiors - one high density commuter and one suitable for longer distances.

Doubt you'd get a new AC version of 455 unless you get more orders for the south.

Er the current fleet of 86 319s has to different styles with the /2 and /4 fleets being more long distance and /0 and /3 fleets being more high density commuter units. So they are already like you think is impractical.

Perhaps if the north does end up with them then the more than enough would allow for service enhancement with an electric fleet offering more opitions.

 

[sprinterguy]

Sorry but fact Desiro City has plug doors is mute. Desiro or Desiro Cities can have either plug or sliding doors. Sliding doors were choosen for Thameslink due to decreased opening and closing times in Core. Even one second per open or close means nearly a minute extra per hour. Everything is being designed to be as quick as possible. Remember the Electrostar comes in both variants but no-one choose it for any current Desiro opition.

I know that sliding plug doors have been selected for the Thameslink stock in order to reduce dwell times to a minimum. That doesn't mean that the Desiro Cities won't have less window area permitting natural light to enter the carriage than existing Desiro designs, so the point is not moot (Not mute).

 

[northwichcat]

Er the current fleet of 86 319s has to different styles with the /2 and /4 fleets being more long distance and /0 and /3 fleets being more high density commuter units. So they are already like you think is impractical.

Didn't know it was opposite day

Given there are over 80 of them it wouldn't be impractical to have two different styles of interiors - one high density commuter and one suitable for longer distances.

Doubt you'd get a new AC version of 455 unless you get more orders for the south.

I actually mean 444s. I'd be surprised if an AC version of a 455 is even possible to build.

10 is the bare minimum for Manchester Airport-Scotland so add on Liverpool portions to some and I think 18 is a realistic figure. Add on a half-hourly Airport-York service and you're looking at over 25 units or over 100 carriages (if in 4 car formation.) Not a large order I admit but would be slightly bigger than the full order placed for 172s which was split between 3 operators.

 

[jopsuk]

The 379 order was only 120 carriages
(and whilst you wouldn't get it built today, an AC-version of a 455 was very much possible to build, that's what a 317 is...)

 

[northwichcat]

(and whilst you wouldn't get it built today, an AC-version of a 455 was very much possible to build, that's what a 317 is...)

I did mean it would be possibly be impossible to build today. (By the time it would need to meet the current safety and emissions standards.)

 

[ert47]

Just putting this out there; The Class 376s and 378s have windows around the door pockets and still look pretty bright inside. I doubt not having those windows would make much of a difference to the amount of natural light getting in.

 

[tbtc]

With suggestions that the 319s won't go to Thames Valley that could leave a lot for the North. Given there are over 80 of them

A lot depends on whether the 319s are expected to go onto services that are currently TPE or just onto local stoppers (they run the hundred miles from Bedford to Brighton, so presumably they are okay for longer distance passengers down south to use).

But there will be potential to free up existing EMUs in "the North" - the 321s, 322s and 323s could move back south to GA/ GA/ LM respectively. LM will presumably need more EMUs for the Chase line, the Coventry - Nuneaton line, Marston Vale etc - why not give them some more 323s?

By the time the TP routes are live, we should also have an electric MML and Coventry-Basingstoke (and possibly the spine and DC conversion thingy).
A sensible rolling-stock strategy would specifiy an overall new inter-regional fleet of decent size rather than pockets of oddball trains for each area.
Not sure if DfT is up to that level of sophistication though...

Good point - the need for EMUs to be available on certain dates isn't known just yet, but the plan of "Lancashire Triangle and Thames Valleys first" may just be an assumption - some of the simple "fill ins" like Coventry - Nuneaton could be done fairly early - certainly before you can get all the way from Liverpool to York over the Pennines by EMU.

 

[northwichcat]

But there will be potential to free up existing EMUs in "the North" - the 321s, 322s and 323s could move back south to GA/ GA/ LM respectively. LM will presumably need more EMUs for the Chase line, the Coventry - Nuneaton line, Marston Vale etc - why not give them some more 323s?

How does the class 319 acceleration compare with that of the 321s and 323s?

Getting rid of the 323s would remove the option of using 319s as 323 replacement to allow some peak time services through Bolton to be operated by 2x323s, which some people have suggested to provide enough capacity and to still get around platform length issues.

GA dosn't need any additional units in the short term and when they do, taking up the remaining 317s would be the first logical step. LM may also release their 321s if they get the rest of the 323s and additional 350s.

 

[sprinterguy]

How does the class 319 acceleration compare with that of the 321s and 323s?

319s have the same power output as 321s and are slightly, if only slightly, lighter than 321s, so in my, admittedly limited, experience of travelling on the two different classes their performance has been comparable. I feel that 323s accelerate somewhat quicker than 319s, in my experience. Given that 323s have twice as many powered axles and slightly more power per unit to accelerate three carriages instead of four, this would make sense.

 

[tbtc]

GA dosn't need any additional units in the short term and when they do, taking up the remaining 317s would be the first logical step

If the 315s are off to Wales (as has been suggested many times) then they'd need more than just those freed up by Crossrail to cover the Valley Lines (inc Ebbw Vale, Maesteg, Swanline etc), so giving GA more 321s may allow this (even if they don't get any net increase in capacity).

 

[Class377/5]

I know that sliding plug doors have been selected for the Thameslink stock in order to reduce dwell times to a minimum. That doesn't mean that the Desiro Cities won't have less window area permitting natural light to enter the carriage than existing Desiro designs, so the point is not moot (Not mute).

But considering the 380 body shell is part based on Desiro City body I'd say its more likely to be airy, have you experienced a 380? But we'll have to wait till someone orders to know for sure.

Didn't know it was opposite day

I actually mean 444s. I'd be surprised if an AC version of a 455 is even possible to build.

10 is the bare minimum for Manchester Airport-Scotland so add on Liverpool portions to some and I think 18 is a realistic figure. Add on a half-hourly Airport-York service and you're looking at over 25 units or over 100 carriages (if in 4 car formation.) Not a large order I admit but would be slightly bigger than the full order placed for 172s which was split between 3 operators.

I'm sure TPE would enjoy a new run of 380 units as they are an improved 444. Also they come in three or four car 23m configuration, idea for TPE.

 

[HSTEd]

I'm sure TPE would enjoy a new run of 380 units as they are an improved 444. Also they come in three or four car 23m configuration, idea for TPE.

Well they aren't really.

They are more like Cl450s with stretched carriages.
(Note the third-position double doors).

 

[sprinterguy]

But considering the 380 body shell is part based on Desiro City body I'd say its more likely to be airy, have you experienced a 380? But we'll have to wait till someone orders to know for sure.

Yes I've travelled on 380s, they are excellent trains. However if the design of the Desiro City trains for Thameslink follows the form of all the CGI mock-ups that have been released, I see very few similarities in the bodyshell: In contrast to the class 380s, the Desiro Cities will have sliding pocket doors, far fewer windows per carriage and bodyshells three metres shorter.