Excessive time to buy a ticket after a journey?.

[mediamazter]

First post in here and its a bit of a rant..

Caught then 12.07 Shirehampton - Bristol Temple Meads train yesterday (17/11) Which arrived at Temple Meads 12.33..

The guard did not come through the train selling tickets, and was quiet a busy train so was just dispatched the train from the rear cab end. Had this happen before due to broken ticket machine etc so know its not uncommon.

So had to queue up by the exit barriers at Temple Meads to buy a ticket... No problem with that either.. What annoys me is the length of time it took.. Got the ticket at 12.51 so effectively if you say it took a minute to walk from Platform 1 to the barriers it would equate to queuing for a ticket for 16 minutes. For a Journey that took 26mins ?

Lady in the queue in front of me was travelling on to another destination(cant remember where) and went to the gate and asked if she could buy a ticket on her next train and was told "You can but you might be penalty fared or Charged twice the single" was only overhearing her so might have it wrong.. Also she asked could she go to the ticket office past the barriers to get a ticket there for a train about to depart.. "No was the reply theres another one at 1pm" .. Ticket office was fairly quiet by the look of it.

On the gate you had one cross country guy selling tickets, A lady who disappeared after a few mins despite a large queue(i know she might have had to go crew a train somewhere) and A guy who spent more time trying to get his temperamental ticket machine working than selling tickets..

Is is acceptable to be asked to wait that long to buy a ticket.. ?

Rant over!

B

 

[trentside]

It does sound like an unacceptably long time to be kept waiting, though it sounds like the barrier staff had problems of their own. You've got to focus on serving the person in front of you, and not the queue behind them - so with the first lady asking questions, each must be answered and then subsequent questions answered, it can take a long time (especially with customers not used to travelling by train). Letting her go to the ticket office would have likely seen her leave and not return, or just buy a ticket to her destination from Bristol - I hate to be so suspicious but it happens a lot.

As for the second staff member with the troublesome ticket machine, if it wasn't working he couldn't sell tickets - end of. Our barrier staff tend to adopt a policy of only selling tickets for cash, and will escort passengers needing to pay by card to the ticket office as the card readers they use are unreliable at best.

 

[Greenback]

It's a difficult situation. The passenger has an obligation to buy a ticket for their journey, but the TOC has not provided the means to do so until the end of the journey. On a busy train arriving at a busy station, when there are problems with equipment this can, and on this occasion has, led to an unacceptable delay.

Unfortunately, I don;t believe that ther eis anything in writing anywhere to cover this sort of situation. I would hope that if this was a regular occurrence at Bristol Temple Meads, then FGW would do something about it, so I assume that this was a rare situation caused by a number of unrelated factors.

 

[Flamingo]

Spare guards at Bristol often get asked to go over and "queuebust".

 

[lemonic]

I would hope that if this was a regular occurrence at Bristol Temple Meads, then FGW would do something about it, so I assume that this was a rare situation caused by a number of unrelated factors.

I am not sure how long the queuing times normally are, but it is definitely not a rare occurrence for many passengers coming off these trains to have not been sold tickets by the time the train gets to Bristol Temple Meads. Some of these trains get quite busy and there are times when the guard has no chance of selling everyone in one carriage a ticket, let alone two. Sometimes an additional member of staff is on board to sell people tickets, but even then there are often people left without tickets.

Also, on Saturdays, for example, many people are making onward journeys, which are more expensive, so they pay by card which takes longer. I would hope that passengers making onward journeys who aren't sold tickets would buy a ticket on their next train rather than queuing up if they had a tight connection - This is what I have done in the past and have never been challenged for it, as I do not believe it is reasonable to have to queue up to buy your ticket at an interchange station if it means delaying your journey. (This also makes the queues shorter for those who actually need tickets as they are finishing their journey at Temple Meads)

 

[route:oxford]

Clearly help is required by the gateline staff.

The best thing to do is to shout:-

"Help! Help!! Can someone get a manager quickly!!!"

Staff will immediately come racing to assist. It works in shops and supermarkets, so is bound to work in railway stations.

 

[beeza1]

The guard did not come through the train selling tickets, and was quiet a busy train so was just dispatched the train from the rear cab end.

Lady in the queue in front of me was travelling on to another destination(cant remember where) and went to the gate and asked if she could buy a ticket on her next train and was told "You can but you might be penalty fared or Charged twice the single"

B

I asked a similar question a couple of weeks ago on this forum.
I was advised "I didn't have to miss my connection in order to buy a ticket at the interchange, I could purchase a ticket on board, providing I stated my original departure station", this was later contradicted in another thread, implying I did have to buy a ticket at the interchange, even if it meant missing my connection, this was contradicted again back to the original "you don't have to miss your connection" advice.
Can someone please give me a simple "yes or no" answer, quoting the relevant ruling, regarding buying on board at an interchange.
It does seem a bit ridiculous if people have to miss connections due to the TOC's not employing enough staff, and/or, using unreliable equipment.

 

[Greenback]

I am not sure how long the queuing times normally are, but it is definitely not a rare occurrence for many passengers coming off these trains to have not been sold tickets by the time the train gets to Bristol Temple Meads. Some of these trains get quite busy and there are times when the guard has no chance of selling everyone in one carriage a ticket, let alone two. Sometimes an additional member of staff is on board to sell people tickets, but even then there are often people left without tickets.

I agree that it is not rare for passengers to arriva at Bristol temple Meads without having bought a ticket. However, the issue is what happens when there are issues with equipment at the barrier, insufficient staff at the barrier, or simply not enough staff at the barrier due to high passenger numbers.

Also, on Saturdays, for example, many people are making onward journeys, which are more expensive, so they pay by card which takes longer. I would hope that passengers making onward journeys who aren't sold tickets would buy a ticket on their next train rather than queuing up if they had a tight connection - This is what I have done in the past and have never been challenged for it, as I do not believe it is reasonable to have to queue up to buy your ticket at an interchange station if it means delaying your journey. (This also makes the queues shorter for those who actually need tickets as they are finishing their journey at Temple Meads)

I agree. I certainly would not add to a queue if I had a tight conenction, I would make my way to the enxt train and I would expect to be able to buy on board since I had been denied the opportunity at my origin station and on board the first service.

Similarly, if I had a longer conenction, I would try and buy a ticket, but if the length of the wait became an issue which might lead to me missing my next train, I would catch that train.

I asked a similar question a couple of weeks ago on this forum.
I was advised "I didn't have to miss my connection in order to buy a ticket at the interchange, I could purchase a ticket on board, providing I stated my original departure station", this was later contradicted in another thread, implying I did have to buy a ticket at the interchange, even if it meant missing my connection, this was contradicted again back to the original "you don't have to miss your connection" advice.
Can someone please give me a simple "yes or no" answer, quoting the relevant ruling, regarding buying on board at an interchange.
It does seem a bit ridiculous if people have to miss connections due to the TOC's not employing enough staff, and/or, using unreliable equipment.

I am in agreement with those who say you do not have to miss your connection. I am aware that a few others might not believe this to be the case, but in my view it is wholly unreasonable for any TOC to not provide ticket purcchasing facilities at a station or on board a train, and then expect a passenger to be inconvenienced, fined or both as a result.

 

[yorkie]

Lady in the queue in front of me was travelling on to another destination(cant remember where) and went to the gate and asked if she could buy a ticket on her next train and was told "You can but you might be penalty fared or Charged twice the single" was only overhearing her so might have it wrong.. Also she asked could she go to the ticket office past the barriers to get a ticket there for a train about to depart.. "No was the reply theres another one at 1pm" .. Ticket office was fairly quiet by the look of it.

I would say she should be entitled to delay compensation as appropriate, depending on the delay to her arrival time at her final destination.

I firmly believe that what she was told was incorrect and I would have urged her to complain.

Is is acceptable to be asked to wait that long to buy a ticket.. ?

Ask FGW that, as I'd be interested to hear their response. It's certainly not consistent with what their Passenger Charter states!

Can someone please give me a simple "yes or no" answer, quoting the relevant ruling, regarding buying on board at an interchange.

I say you do not have to miss a train to buy at the interchange.

And can I also request that if any member of rail staff says that the passenger must buy at the interchange, thus missing their connection, can they please state the name of the manager(s) who made that decision and/or the exact place where that information is documented, so that I can make arrangements to contact Customer Services at the relevant TOC, and also put them into contact with the relevant people at ATOC.

 

[hairyhandedfool]

....Ask FGW that, as I'd be interested to hear their response. It's certainly not consistent with what their Passenger Charter states!....

I'd be interested to see why you think it is not consistent. I'd also like to know what you think of....

Where journeys start at stations where there
are no ticketing facility available, it is your
responsibility to pay your fare to the on-board
staff who are able to issue the normal range
of tickets.

.....and.....

In addition, special ticket
checks will take place from time-to-time at
all our stations and additional automatic
ticket gates are in place at many of our
stations. If you do not have a valid ticket you
may well be delayed, and delay others
leaving the station.

.....and.....

It is your responsibility to contact a member
of our on board staff as soon as you board
a train if you do not have a valid ticket,
advising that you wish to buy one for the
journey you intend to make, ensuring also
that you have the means to buy a valid ticket.

 

[yorkie]

1) The passenger cannot be held responsible if the guard does not leave his cab!
2) Yes, but the delay time should surely be no greater than the time specified (5 minutes). A delay, yes of course, but a reasonable delay. 16 minutes is unreasonable and over 3 times what the Passengers Charter says you should be required to wait.
3) That statement is incorrect and should be challenged. Thanks for bringing it to our attention.

 

[beeza1]

Originally Posted by from the FGW Passenger Charter link
It is your responsibility to contact a member
of our on board staff as soon as you board
a train if you do not have a valid ticket,
advising that you wish to buy one for the
journey you intend to make, ensuring also
that you have the means to buy a valid ticket.

What happens if you can't contact a member of staff on board?
I was on a Northern service last week, which was very busy, the guard never came round, the guards "cabin" was seperated from the passenger compartment by a small corridor with a locked door, it took me almost an hour to get his attention so I could buy a ticket, I knew time would be tight at my interchange, as the train was running late, I did manage to buy a ticket and caught my connection with not much time to spare, if I had to purchase a ticket at the interchange I would have missed my connection and been delayed by over an hour.
Why should I have to be delayed through no fault of my own?

 

[hairyhandedfool]

....2) Yes, but the delay time should surely be no greater than the time specified (5 minutes). A delay, yes of course, but a reasonable delay. 16 minutes is unreasonable and over 3 times what the Passengers Charter says you should be required to wait....

Where is the time specified? (I'm just curious to see where this info is).

Originally Posted by from the FGW Passenger Charter link
It is your responsibility to contact a member
of our on board staff as soon as you board
a train if you do not have a valid ticket,
advising that you wish to buy one for the
journey you intend to make, ensuring also
that you have the means to buy a valid ticket.

What happens if you can't contact a member of staff on board?
I was on a Northern service last week, which was very busy, the guard never came round, the guards "cabin" was seperated from the passenger compartment by a small corridor with a locked door, it took me almost an hour to get his attention so I could buy a ticket, I knew time would be tight at my interchange, as the train was running late, I did manage to buy a ticket and caught my connection with not much time to spare, if I had to purchase a ticket at the interchange I would have missed my connection and been delayed by over an hour.
Why should I have to be delayed through no fault of my own?

I'm not saying anything about the rights or wrongs, just asking for an opinion.

 

[Greenback]

Originally Posted by from the FGW Passenger Charter link
It is your responsibility to contact a member
of our on board staff as soon as you board
a train if you do not have a valid ticket,
advising that you wish to buy one for the
journey you intend to make, ensuring also
that you have the means to buy a valid ticket.

What happens if you can't contact a member of staff on board?
I was on a Northern service last week, which was very busy, the guard never came round, the guards "cabin" was seperated from the passenger compartment by a small corridor with a locked door, it took me almost an hour to get his attention so I could buy a ticket, I knew time would be tight at my interchange, as the train was running late, I did manage to buy a ticket and caught my connection with not much time to spare, if I had to purchase a ticket at the interchange I would have missed my connection and been delayed by over an hour.
Why should I have to be delayed through no fault of my own?

Quite. But the statement is incorrect, as Yorkie has pointed out. It is clearly not acceptable to delay someone's journey by over an hour because the TOC is unable to provide ticket purchasing facilities

 

[bnm]

hairyhandedfool, all those 'responsibilities' are in a non legally binding Passenger Charter. Where is the legal requirement to back it up?

If you believe that these responsibilities have to be adhered to on pain of a penalty fare or worse, then where are the penalties the TOC will receive for not adhering to the queueing time standards in the same document?

That charter makes clear that the National Rail Conditions of Carriage will apply as appropriate in the circumstances you have selectively quoted. Interesting that you left that bit out.... No part of the NRCoC makes it a legal requirement to delay your journey to buy a ticket, or to seek out staff on board to purchase a ticket.

As has been pointed out elsewhere the NRCoC is silent on the need to delay a journey by purchasing at an interchange. The same goes with the Byelaws. Nowhere is there a legal requirement to either delay ones journey at an interchange to buy a ticket, or indeed to seek out a member of staff on board to make a purchase. FGW may well say in their Passenger Charter that it is your responsibility to seek out staff but there is no legislation that backs up that supposed responsibility.

In regard to Penalty Fares the legislation (not any IRCAS, DfT or SRA publication) is also unequivocally clear:

http://www.legislation.gov.uk/uksi/1994/576/regulation/6/made

Circumstances in which a penalty fare is not to be charged where a person is travelling on a train

6.—(1) Subject to the provisions of paragraph (3), in the case of a person travelling by, being present on or leaving a train (in this regulation referred to as “the relevant train”), no person shall be charged a penalty fare in the circumstances to which this regulation applies.

(2) The circumstances to which this regulation applies are that, at the time when and at the station where the person in question boarded the relevant train, or, in the case where a person has boarded the relevant train after travelling on a preceding train, that, at the time when and at the station where the person in question boarded that preceding train,

(a)there were no facilities in operation for the sale of the appropriate ticket or other authority to make the journey being or having been made by that person;

(b)the requirements of rules in respect of the display of notices were not satisfied;

(c)a notice was displayed indicating that the person in question was, or persons generally were, permitted to travel by or be present on the relevant train or, as the case may be, the preceding train without having a ticket or other authority; or

(d)a person acting or purporting to act on behalf of
(i)the operator of the relevant train, or
(ii)the operator of the station in question,
indicated that the person in question was, or persons generally were, permitted to travel by or be present on the relevant train or, as the case may be, any preceding train without having a ticket or other authority.

(3) Paragraphs (1) and (2) of this regulation shall not prevent a person from being charged a penalty fare where he had been invited by anybody acting on behalf of the operator of the relevant train or any preceding train to obtain a ticket or other authority while travelling on or present on the relevant train or that preceding train.

 

[Howardh]

On the train the guard comes round - or not - so you can buy a ticket.

How much of a hassle would it be to have ticket machines ON the trains? One in each carriage? So, unless it's extremely crowded and you simply can't get to the machine, you walk up, pick your journey, pay and, hey presto, a valid ticket for the journey.

Where's the difficulty in that? Might also be a safer method than buying one from a machine on an unstaffed station where you have to get your card out, your bag's unguarded for a second etc etc.

 

[bnm]

I'll add that I'm a regular traveller on the Severn Beach Line (most often from Shirehampton) and there have been occasions when I too have been unable to buy on board for whatever reason. If the queue at the gateline fares sellers at Temple Meads looks like it means I'll miss the connection I want to make, I will not hesitate to make my way to that connection.

All the times this has happened I've been able to purchase my ticket on board the next train without problems, except on one occasion where I managed to get to my destination without having had an opportunity for me to purchase (two changes, tight connections, broken Avantix on second train, non-commercial guard on third). On that occasion I was delayed unnecessarily by another TOCs RPIs and was facing a Penalty Fare. I argued my case at the time and the RPI conceded that a Penalty Fare wouldn't be issued, but even then I was told I should have delayed my journey to buy a ticket! I received a goodwill gesture equivalent to the fare for that journey after I complained to this RPIs TOC. They however did not address the part of my complaint about the RPI stating I should have delayed my journey.

There appears to be a widely held belief amongst rail staff that passengers either need to seek out staff on board when travelling from stations with no facilities, or to delay their journey to make a purchase at an interchange. There is no legislation to back up these beliefs and it is worrying that staff will either give out such false advice, or issue PFs, UFNs or MG11 based on this belief.

 

[route:oxford]

On the train the guard comes round - or not - so you can buy a ticket.

How much of a hassle would it be to have ticket machines ON the trains? One in each carriage? So, unless it's extremely crowded and you simply can't get to the machine, you walk up, pick your journey, pay and, hey presto, a valid ticket for the journey.

Where's the difficulty in that? Might also be a safer method than buying one from a machine on an unstaffed station where you have to get your card out, your bag's unguarded for a second etc etc.

You don't need ticket machines on trains. Just the means to buy on-line an instant e-ticket for journey that's in-course.

 

[hairyhandedfool]

....How much of a hassle would it be to have ticket machines ON the trains? One in each carriage? So, unless it's extremely crowded and you simply can't get to the machine, you walk up, pick your journey, pay and, hey presto, a valid ticket for the journey.

Where's the difficulty in that? Might also be a safer method than buying one from a machine on an unstaffed station where you have to get your card out, your bag's unguarded for a second etc etc.

It's not a case of how easy it would be for 'average Joe', but how easy it would be for 'fare evaders', and bare in mind you are talking about TOCs and ROSCOs spending money aswell. There are almost certainly more trains (nevermind coaches) than there are stations and TOCs are not exactly keen on putting facilities on stations. Add to all of that the fact that on busy trains there is barely enough room for all the passengers and putting machines on the train would take up some of the room they do have!. I just can't see that idea taking off in Britain.

 

[Tomonthetrain]

You don't need ticket machines on trains. Just the means to buy on-line an instant e-ticket for journey that's in-course.

What about those without cards or have a big purchase needed to be made by card later in the day? How would they pay?

 

[TPJ]

I was in Koln recently and tickets were available to purchase inside the local trams/trains

 

[mediamazter]

Glad to see I have created a good debate... Interesting replies..

I know you are suppose to seek out the guard for a ticket if you can but when they are locked in the rear cab end its a bit akward.. Plus how long do you wait do you jump on and start banging on the door Straight away or wait ? ...

I was travelling to Newport so there was no problem with missing a connection for me.. The lady in front definitely would not have left I followed her into the underpass and she went onto platform 5 i think.. I know for everyone who is honest there are probably 10 who are not so can understand why staff are reluctant to let people through if they say they need to buy a ticket..

For the return journey barriers were open at Newport so no protection, again no tickets checked on train, and barriers were open at Temple Meads.. Ok this was in the later part of the evening.....

B

 

[30907]

I was in Koln recently and tickets were available to purchase inside the local trams/trains

That's fairly common practice in Germany as far as city public transport goes (bus, tram, U-bahn).

It helps that mostly they operate a flat-fare system AND carry large numbers of pass holders - so the machines can be simple and quick to use, and most people don't need to use them every trip. (Not to mention the occasional Schwarzfahrer aka fare-dodger!)

I've seen them on rural trains in Germany, but not on S-bahn or RB/RE trains - but may have missed spotting them.

 

[island]

Spare guards at Bristol often get asked to go over and "queuebust".

Good idea. Passengers get served sooner and the guards pick up some commission!

On the train the guard comes round - or not - so you can buy a ticket.

How much of a hassle would it be to have ticket machines ON the trains? One in each carriage? So, unless it's extremely crowded and you simply can't get to the machine, you walk up, pick your journey, pay and, hey presto, a valid ticket for the journey.

Where's the difficulty in that? Might also be a safer method than buying one from a machine on an unstaffed station where you have to get your card out, your bag's unguarded for a second etc etc.

Rather large capital cost of installing that many ticket machines, no? And you have to pay someone to empty them all.

 

[maniacmartin]

The obvious solution is for FGW to have more people selling tickets "airside" at the station. Ideally the DfT should impose a strict franchise requirement on queue lengths.

According to FGW's Passenger Charter, regarding queue lengths: " Regular checks will be carried out to ensure that these standards are consistently met and any shortfall rectified." I wonder what these checks are.

 

[island]

I thought the queuing target only applied at booking offices?

 

[hairyhandedfool]

hairyhandedfool, all those 'responsibilities' are in a non legally binding Passenger Charter. Where is the legal requirement to back it up?....

I think you mis-interpreted the tone of my post, I simply asked for an opinion from yorkie in regard to a document he linked to.

I thought the queuing target only applied at booking offices?

I've only seen it relation to ticket offices, which was why I had asked about where it was written.

 

[bnm]

I think you mis-interpreted the tone of my post, I simply asked for an opinion from yorkie in regard to a document he linked to.

In that case, please accept my apologies. I misunderstood the points you were making. I know see your posts were meant in the spirit of enquiry rather than stating your position on the issues at hand.

I trust though that you agree that whilst TOCs and (some of) their staff want passengers to seek out staff on board or delay their journey at an interchange, there is no legal requirement for a passenger to do either when there were no facilities to purchase a ticket or permit to travel at the station where their journey commenced.

 

[maniacmartin]

Reading the Charter again, it does specifically mention ticket offices.

 

[Howardh]

Rather large capital cost of installing that many ticket machines, no? And you have to pay someone to empty them all.

I would have thought the cost + emptying would be far less than the cost of lost sales through passengers travelling between two stations where there are no ticket machines AND the guard doesn't come round selling any. What are they to do, pop a fiver into an honesty box?

C'mon. What's the cost of installing ticket machines on trains? Bet it's cheaper than the amount of fuel wasted running cold air-conditioning in winter (take one step forward, TPE).