Anti-social behaviour on DOO services - what can be done?

[DarloRich]

I agree in a lot of cases, but I personally won't approach anyone who is obviously intoxicated if I'm on my own (especially if there's a few of them), as it's not worth the risk.

I have found that there is often a "sensible" one in a party who will calm things down.

I agree that staying clear of the solo random nutter is a sensible suggestion. It is the randoms you need to worry about, not a group of lads. MOST of the time they have no intrest in being knicked

 

[Flamingo]

I hate to burst some bubbles out there, but what do posters specifically expect the Train Guard or Driver to do?

Any posters coming up with solutions like "The guard should throw them off the train", are pie in the sky, and have no relationship to the real world. We are unable to throw passengers off at unmanned stations (it's against their human rights (sarcasm mode on) - and the rulebook), and if the passenger then decides to "lean" against the train, what then?

The train guard (and/or driver) is on their own, with no personal protection equipment, no training in physical control techniques, no training in physical combat, no legal ability to do so in anything other than self defence (and even then it is open to the CPS to decide was it justified or not, and all that involves), and they have very specific written instructions that under NO circumstances are they to place themselves in any situation where they are personally in danger.

Every time we do intervene with passengers like those described by the OP, we are in breach of the "Violence At Work" policy for approaching a potentially dangerous situation and not locking ourselves in the back cab.

TOC's are fully aware that train guards, and drivers on DOO trains are highly vulnerable lone workers, but instead of adopting an approach that would ensure more resources are given to ensure our safety, they have responded by writing policies and procedures where if a guard is assaulted, the TOC's legal liability is minimised by them being able to say that the member of staff was not following company policy.

You may have noticed I have not mentioned BTP yet. That is because they are an irrelevance. Essentially, all BTP are any use for is taking statements after the event (preferably 9-5), and looking at the CCTV pictures to see if they can manage to identify anybody. In terms of dealing with the actual trouble, they are not in the equation. It is now 22.30 on a Saturday night, and I would be surprised if there are enough BTP officers on duty in all of South Wales for me to need more than one hand to count them on. Past observation would confirm that suspicion.

So, would a guard make a difference? Probably. Would a guard intervene? Probably. When they get thumped will management say it was their own fault? Probably.

 

[Butts]

I hate to burst some bubbles out there, but what do posters specifically expect the Train Guard or Driver to do?

What do you think (much lower paid) Bus Drivers do in similar circumstances?

Seemples....retire to "the armoury" retrieve the "pump-action" shotgun and dispose of the problem !!!

 

[Flamingo]

No idea, I'm not a bus driver. However, I'm sure that they receive similar instructions to me, as the company I work for have a very large bus division. Whatever either of us is paid is irrelevant.

 

[Butts]

No idea, I'm not a bus driver. However, I'm sure that they receive similar instructions to me, as the company I work for have a very large bus division. Whatever either of us is paid is irrelevant.

Perhaps they need some of "The Byelaw Enforcement Officers" Merseyrail deploy mentioned on another thread.

 

[wessex]

other tham bringing back an onboard presence like a guard, there is always twitter to the toc in question who could pass the info on to btp and have the train stopped at best station to deal with it.

 

[Butts]

other tham bringing back an onboard presence like a guard, there is always twitter to the toc in question who could pass the info on to btp and have the train stopped at best station to deal with it.

If BTP are as thin on the ground as Flamingo alleges this whilst sensible course of action would seem meaningless !!

 

[Flamingo]

Not a bad idea, (we're micromanaged about whatever anybody is whinging about on twitter & facebook already). However, I think they go home around 9-10pm.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

If BTP are as thin on the ground as Flamingo alleges this whilst sensible course of action would seem meaningless !!

I wish it was otherwise.

 

[bicbasher]

London Overground seem to have security teams. I wonder how they deal with things? Do they get involved or simply report to the police? Also, does their presence alone reduce incidents in the first place?

They're called Travel Safe Officers and when I've seen them go in twos, especially on services just before and after school and on late evening services when I've seen them on the ELL.

When I've seen them on a service when a group of school children were on, they soon quietened down! However, I haven't seen them deal with troublesome passengers.

http://www.tfl.gov.uk/corporate/about-tfl/19360.aspx

 

[Lewisham2221]

What do you think (much lower paid) Bus Drivers do in similar circumstances?

Put their foot down and get the troublemakers to their intended stop as quickly as possible?

 

[Flamingo]

I was being slightly tongue in cheek - and I have had a fare-dodger accuse me of breaching his human rights by asking him to leave a train. Also, all the posts on various threads lately about our "duty of care" to every drunk who wishes to use the railway as a free taxi service, regardless of their behaviour, it was only going to be a matter of time before some numpty said it would be breaching their human rights, I was getting my retaliation in first!

I have edited the post to reflect this

 

[bronzeonion]

Conductors on Class 378 units can view the interior CCTV from the rear cab. I presume all of the other Electrostar/Turbostar units have this ability too when in Conductor mode?

Like i've said near the start of this thread, most people who would be comitting crimes like smoking or potentially abusing other passengers would be put off doing those things purely by the presence of a conductor. If you have a hardcore idiot who would do this regardless of a conductor, the conductor can go to the rear cab and can then contact the relevant people for action to be taken at hopefully the next stop.

On a DOO train, none of that would be possible.

 

[notadriver]

Drivers can look at the internal CCTV in 378s when it's stationary too

 

[Greenback]

Conductors on Class 378 units can view the interior CCTV from the rear cab. I presume all of the other Electrostar/Turbostar units have this ability too when in Conductor mode?

Like i've said near the start of this thread, most people who would be comitting crimes like smoking or potentially abusing other passengers would be put off doing those things purely by the presence of a conductor. If you have a hardcore idiot who would do this regardless of a conductor, the conductor can go to the rear cab and can then contact the relevant people for action to be taken at hopefully the next stop.

On a DOO train, none of that would be possible.

Yes, I think that an onboard member of staff is a deterrent. When people know that there is no official presence in the passenger accommodation, they will push the envelope a bit further than they otherwise would.

 

[Mojo]

On a DOO train, none of that would be possible.

Sorry, that isn't true. On the S Stock, CCTV is displayed from the relevant car when the Passenger Emergency Alarm is pulled.

As has already been stated, guards are unlikely to get involved in many incidents anyway, due to advice from their companies not to. So I'm not convinced about this argument. I much prefer to have staffed stations than staffed trains, although my preference overall would be to have staffed stations with a frequent on-train presence of non-safety critical staff.

 

[trainophile]

How would a driver be able to tweet while he's driving? Wouldn't a hands-free phone in the cab be safer?

 

[bronzeonion]

Sorry, that isn't true. On the S Stock, CCTV is displayed from the relevant car when the Passenger Emergency Alarm is pulled.

As has already been stated, guards are unlikely to get involved in many incidents anyway, due to advice from their companies not to. So I'm not convinced about this argument. I much prefer to have staffed stations than staffed trains, although my preference overall would be to have staffed stations with a frequent on-train presence of non-safety critical staff.

You cannot access the interior CCTV whilst moving without a PEA being activated on an S stock.

They dont have to get involved, they can just observe the behaviour, report it and then Police etc will deal with it. I've seen it happen before! I was waiting for a friend of mine at Kings Cross, and when his train pulled in there was a delay before the doors released as the guard had requested Police to meet his train there and the Police took the disruptive person away on the spot there.

 

[Greenback]

If there is a uniformed presence walking up and down the train, it will act as a deterrent, whether they are a guard or any other member of staff. They don't have to be safety critical.

 

[transmanche]

I was being slightly tongue in cheek

Fair doos, i have deleted my previous comments.

 

[notadriver]

What do you think (much lower paid) Bus Drivers do in similar circumstances?

What's bus drivers pay got to do with this ? They are much lower paid because they are lower skilled and need far less training.

 

[Flamingo]

Fair doos, i have deleted my previous comments.

No worries, Human Rights does get flung around and is a much abused term.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

If there is a uniformed presence walking up and down the train, it will act as a deterrent, whether they are a guard or any other member of staff. They don't have to be safety critical.

True, but a solo uniformed presence is not very intimidating. As a colleague of mine once put it to a load of police who told him "There is no need to kick them (6 louts) off, they are quiet now",
"The reason they are quiet is because there are 14 of you with stab vests, batons and CS Spray- after you go, I'm on my own with a whistle, what do you think will happen then!"

 

[Greenback]

True, but a solo uniformed presence is not very intimidating. As a colleague of mine once put it to a load of police who told him "There is no need to kick them (6 louts) off, they are quiet now",
"The reason they are quiet is because there are 14 of you with stab vests, batons and CS Spray- after you go, I'm on my own with a whistle, what do you think will happen then!"

Intimidation isn't always required. Incidents of anti social behaviour in my local hospital fall when one member of security is there compared to when they aren't. Of course, it doesn't deter everyone, but it does deter some.

 

[Flamingo]

That's true, the thing about this (and similar) threads is that the travelling public view the guard as a glorified security guard / PCSO which is a role we are not trained in, not equiped for, have no legal mandate or back-up for and indeed are specifically forbidden to do by our employer.

That is the issue that needs highlighting.

 

[Wyvern]

Mind you when something goes wrong the TOC does have someone to blame.

 

[Greenback]

That's true, the thing about this (and similar) threads is that the travelling public view the guard as a glorified security guard / PCSO which is a role we are not trained in, not equiped for, have no legal mandate or back-up for and indeed are specifically forbidden to do by our employer.

That is the issue that needs highlighting.

Yes, I agree. People's expectations far exceed the reality. I have often felt sorry for train crew when the train contains drunken idiots who won't buy a ticket, won't stop swearing and telling filthy jokes. And the men are almost as bad.

 

[jon0844]

Intimidation isn't always required. Incidents of anti social behaviour in my local hospital fall when one member of security is there compared to when they aren't. Of course, it doesn't deter everyone, but it does deter some.

I think that if you have two bouncer-like officials in hi-vis vests and looking like they could hold their ground, it might serve as a deterrent for most (not those who might know what limited powers they have).

A guard on his/her own might also work, or might serve to encourage the louts to goad the staff member and actually act worse, trying to show off their 'power' (but would quickly turn into quivering wrecks if the police turned up).

It's not exactly easy to judge things on the fly, especially if you just enter a carriage and have to make a judgement in seconds (whereas other passengers may have had longer to consider if they're an actual threat or merely acting like idiots).

More hi-vis BTP patrols at night would be a good investment, with benefits to shareholders and TOCs alike as I am sure many people are put off late night travel, or even travel at weekends when such individuals can quickly take over.

 

[Greenback]

I think that if you have two bouncer-like officials in hi-vis vests and looking like they could hold their ground, it might serve as a deterrent for most (not those who might know what limited powers they have).

A guard on his/her own might also work, or might serve to encourage the louts to goad the staff member and actually act worse, trying to show off their 'power' (but would quickly turn into quivering wrecks if the police turned up).

It's not exactly easy to judge things on the fly, especially if you just enter a carriage and have to make a judgement in seconds (whereas other passengers may have had longer to consider if they're an actual threat or merely acting like idiots).

More hi-vis BTP patrols at night would be a good investment, with benefits to shareholders and TOCs alike as I am sure many people are put off late night travel, or even travel at weekends when such individuals can quickly take over.

I think the issue of people being put off rail travel as a result of bad experiences on late night trains cna be udnerestimated or overlooked completely.

I can remember several horrible evening and weekend journeys where couples and individuals already on the train have appeared horrified by what they have seen and heard from various groups. Next time they may drive to the airport/relatives/wherever and so avoid these situations completely.

There is no easy answer, though. I just happen to think that having staff on board a train in the passenger accommodation will help. Ther eis very little chance of seeing anyone on a DOO Service, and people know that.

 

[BestWestern]

What do you think (much lower paid) Bus Drivers do in similar circumstances?

Seemples....retire to "the armoury" retrieve the "pump-action" shotgun and dispose of the problem !!!

The advice is the same; it involves not leaving the cab. Flamingo has pretty much summed up all that needs to be said on this, an expectation that a Guard is obliged to come charging through the train to keep the peace every time somebody opens a can of lager on a saturday night is very wide of the mark. Some people sadly fail to understand the basic reality that one bloke in a uniform does not have superhero powers to subdue half a dozen drunken louts. It is very unfortunate that the decent majority of rail users have to take their chances at certain times of the day or night, and the small number of idiots who spoil it seem to be left to get on with it, but that is exactly the situation that the powers that be have chosen to create. Those of us who work here are told, really quite firmly, that we do what we can and leave the rest alone. That applies to fare dodgers, antisocial behaviour, the lot. You make the call if you feel the need, but largely do so in the almost certain knowledge that nobody will turn up. And on top of all of that, the largest priority of all is those pesky delay minutes. If you pick up any of those, it had better be serious. If you end up with a costly delay just because a couple of urchins were being a bit fruity with their lingo, it'll likely be frowned upon. Put simply, the priority is getting the train to where it's going on time, moreso than providing a comfortable environment on board. We don't have to like it, but we do have to carry out the job in accordance with our employer's wishes.

 

[charlie873]

If they're smoking then they must be on fire...throw water over them, problem solved.

 

[Flamingo]

I always think of my mum using a train a few years ago, when she was in her 70's. She was travelling on her own, some drunks got on her train, ahe was terrified (I think she couldn't move carriages because of the train layout), and she said "I never saw anybody who I felt could help", the guard didn't come through (again, might have been because of the stock, but she didn't know that). Every time she travelled long distance after that, it was by bus.

TBH this is what I use to motivate myself to (ignore company instructions and) go through trouble trains, as I don't know who is trapped down there that might need help.