Southern add 40 vehicles to order

[Class377/5]

Looking at that press release i think there's a good argument for these extra units being intended to help cascade some of the 319 fleet in advance of the 700's, though the 110mph requirement does raise questions over whether the Electrostar design is suitable and where they could end up long-term.

Chris

I suspect some 377/2 may to Thameslink with new five car 377 DV units replacing them. This would help ease the crush load in peak with a 25% increase in capacity.

Interesting that cascading is prominently mentioned:
a ) is it just a further mention of the 456 transfer to SWT
b ) are a few more 4 car 377s going to be transferred to TL to plug the "700" gap for while.

or assuming the new 116(+100) options

c ) would it allow the recently refurbished dual voltage 3 car 313s to plug the gap in stock for electrification schemes (as the 319s will arrive late from TL) for several years, and some more "700" late arrival service bolstering.

Is southern just a proxy for Govia franchises in general as regards the 116+100 discussions?

I suspect 319 displace is key here with this statement saying alot;

"The 40 vehicles will be in 5 car formation with dual voltage configuration, will cost c£60 million in total and it is expected that they will be delivered during 2014 for service entry in December of that year."

What happens in December 2014? Wires go live in North West.

 

[DarloRich]

Could this mean 8 car sets to MKC?

do we need 8 car trians? The current 4 car service seems ok at this end of the line

 

[philjo]

Perhaps this mean 5 coaches being used on the MK services (or others where 4 is too crowded but 8 is not required)
I gather that 4 coaches is insufficient on the peak services between Watford & Clapham Junction

I suspect it also allows more 377s to be used by FCC to run more peak services as 12-coaches. Especially as when London Bridge is closed to TL services there will be fewer direct trains from Brighton through the TL core during that period.

 

[swt_passenger]

do we need 8 car trians? The current 4 car service seems ok at this end of the line

The London and SE RUS, which is where the case is made for the 8 car (and eventual 2 tph) service, states that the aim is primarily to provide capacity on the WLL:

...In advance of this during CP5, the RUS also recommends platform lengthening to allow eight-car Southern services tocall at stations on the WLL (Option I2), which would provide a significant increment in capacity over the critical Clapham Junction/Croydon to Shepherds Bush link.

So as you suggest it isn't really based on current or future usage at MK.

 

[Class377/5]

do we need 8 car trians? The current 4 car service seems ok at this end of the line

Perhaps this mean 5 coaches being used on the MK services (or others where 4 is too crowded but 8 is not required)
I gather that 4 coaches is insufficient on the peak services between Watford & Clapham Junction

I suspect it also allows more 377s to be used by FCC to run more peak services as 12-coaches. Especially as when London Bridge is closed to TL services there will be fewer direct trains from Brighton through the TL core during that period.

That's how I read it, 5 cars not 8. In peak 8 is need. Maybe some clever diagraming may mean 8 cars in peak with 5 off peak?

Doubt it will mean more 12 cars, pressing need is to replace 319s however one or two additional units may help.

Remember drivers will need some time to train on EMUZs so that could take 6 months.

 

[hwl]

That's how I read it, 5 cars not 8. In peak 8 is need. Maybe some clever diagraming may mean 8 cars in peak with 5 off peak?

Doubt it will mean more 12 cars, pressing need is to replace 319s however one or two additional units may help.

Remember drivers will need some time to train on EMUZs so that could take 6 months.

Very much doubt it will be 5 car to MKC, 4 or 8. Everything previously suggests 5 car units concentrated on Metro services through Balham where the platform lengthening is being done at the moment.

And the 319s could do with a decent refurb before going to the Northwest, which will take a good few months too...

 

[Class377/5]

Very much doubt it will be 5 car to MKC, 4 or 8. Everything previously suggests 5 car units concentrated on Metro services through Balham where the platform lengthening is being done at the moment.

And the 319s could do with a decent refurb before going to the Northwest, which will take a good few months too...

So why order 5 car dual voltage units then? Doesn't make sense to give them to Thameslink and makes little sense to suddenly order 8 377/6 with dual outage when the current 26 are DC only.

Milton Keynes services need extra capacity so this could help there. Plus 5 cars don't require platform extensions, just SDO. Cheap and quick way to provide additional capacity.

Not all the 319s require massive overhaul. Few of the more recently refurished ones could be sent up to over and allow longer services and get heavy refurbishment later.

 

[northwichcat]

And the 319s could do with a decent refurb before going to the Northwest, which will take a good few months too...

IIRC they were supposed to be rewired and have the 3rd rail stuff removed before they are cascaded, as well as a full internal refurbishment.

Could some of the existing 4 car dual-voltage 377s be used to cover the North West routes, allowing the new 5 car dual-voltage units to take their place in the South directly/indirectly?
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

Not all the 319s require massive overhaul. Few of the more recently refurished ones could be sent up to over and allow longer services and get heavy refurbishment later.

Is the current standard of interior suitable for Airport services though?

The first two local services to go over to electric in the North West will be Liverpool-Manchester Airport and Liverpool-Manchester Victoria.

The former attracts a lot of business use and obviously luggage and there have been calls for whatever replaces the 156s to be better suited for Airport use.

The latter ideally needs a high density seating layout. However, if all the 'new' units arrive with more luggage space and 2+2 seating then maybe the Victoria-Liverpool service could get 323s cascaded off existing Manchester Airport services (Piccadilly-Airport stoppers and Manchester-Crewe via Airport services.)

 

[hwl]

So why order 5 car dual voltage units then? Doesn't make sense to give them to Thameslink and makes little sense to suddenly order 8 377/6 with dual outage when the current 26 are DC only.

Ordering anything 3rd rail only from now on is silly given what was said in the CP5 HLOS -this is the first order since. The easy to convert to Dual voltage policy of the last decade would seem to have been replaced by Dual voltage from new.

From the CP5 HLOS:

37. The southern end of the Electric Spine entails the conversion of a section of the existing Southern ‘third rail’ (750V DC) electrification system to the more modern and capable ‘overhead’ (25kV AC) system to upgrade its capability. The Secretary of State also wishes the industry to develop a longer-term proposition and business case for the systematic upgrade from DC to AC of the whole Southern network, for consideration for future control periods. As part of this work the industry will wish to treat the conversion work required for Southampton to Basingstoke as a pilot scheme for such a potential modernisation programme, and review plans for renewing or upgrading the DC network to avoid the risk of nugatory expenditure.

Southern / DfT press release also talks about developing the business case for the 116+100 order.
Having 442s and 455s still in use is the biggest impediment to AC conversion and their replacement would have to be part of the business case for conversion, if almost universal DV stock gets sorted relatively quickly then the BCR for conversion goes up as the cost as gone down as the new rolling stock element has disappeared.

 

[Class377/5]

IIRC they were supposed to be rewired and have the 3rd rail stuff removed before they are cascaded, as well as a full internal refurbishment.

Could some of the existing 4 car dual-voltage 377s be used to cover the North West routes, allowing the new 5 car dual-voltage units to take their place in the South directly/indirectly?

Is the current standard of interior suitable for Airport services though?

The first two local services to go over to electric in the North West will be Liverpool-Manchester Airport and Liverpool-Manchester Victoria.

The former attracts a lot of business use and obviously luggage and there have been calls for whatever replaces the 156s to be better suited for Airport use.

The latter ideally needs a high density seating layout. However, if all the 'new' units arrive with more luggage space and 2+2 seating then maybe the Victoria-Liverpool service could get 323s cascaded off existing Manchester Airport services (Piccadilly-Airport stoppers and Manchester-Crewe via Airport services.)

The 319/4 should be fine. They have First Class plus current serve two airports so doubt Manchester Airport would be an issue. They have 2+2 in standard with 2+1 in first class. Also they were recently refurished inside. Might not be as nice as new trains but acceptable until wholesale refurbishment. They serve major London commuter flows so will be fine internally. Having them should mean more stock meaning less crush, always a good thing.

How many units do you reckon will be needed for the second phase wiring?

I don't think having 377s makes sense as drivers should learn 319s rather than going to latest stock and back again.

 

[northwichcat]

Having 442s and 455s still in use is the biggest impediment to AC conversion and their replacement would have to be part of the business case for conversion, if almost universal DV stock gets sorted relatively quickly then the BCR for conversion goes up as the cost as gone down as the new rolling stock element has disappeared.

Putting OHEs on 3rd rail routes other than the pilot scheme between Southampton and Basingstoke won't be something that is carried out in the immediate future so getting replacements for 442s and 455s isn't higher priority than replacement for 313s, 507s, 508s, 142s and 150s.

We know the SWT 450s easily convert to AC, through the creation of the 350/1s, which will be adequate for the pilot scheme.

 

[Class377/5]

Ordering anything 3rd rail only from now on is silly given what was said in the CP5 HLOS -this is the first order since. The easy to convert to Dual voltage policy of the last decade would seem to have been replaced by Dual voltage from new.

From the CP5 HLOS:

Southern / DfT press release also talks about developing the business case for the 116+100 order.
Having 442s and 455s still in use is the biggest impediment to AC conversion and their replacement would have to be part of the business case for conversion, if almost universal DV stock gets sorted relatively quickly then the BCR for conversion goes up as the cost as gone down as the new rolling stock element has disappeared.

But having AC equipment lying around like in the 375/6 is stupid. The extra equipment has gone to waste and now would need replacing as its not been tested in over 10 years.

Every Desiro is dual voltage ready, just attached the transformer and pan and do a software upgrade. Why order dual voltage equipped units when your jot going to use it. You yourself said they won't sent these eight 377s to Milton Keynes in service so whoses going to pay the osts of regularly running them under th wires to keep the gear going?

Being dual voltage ready not equipped is best here. That way you don't allow equipment to rot.

So far all we've got is Southern ordering 34 five car 377s and having 8 as dual voltage. Your arguement that all new stock must be dual voltage doesn't hold up.

 

[Chris125]

So why order 5 car dual voltage units then?

They aren't - the press release states that the extra 40 vehicles and the order for up to 216 Dual Voltage vehicles are seperate, though the 5-car units will of course be capable of conversion.

"Firstly...it intends to exercise an existing option for 40 new Electrostar carriages from train manufacturer Bombardier, a run on to its 130 carriage order announced at the end of last year. Separately, Southern is developing proposals with the Department for a new procurement competition for 116 electric (dual voltage) new rolling stock vehicles, with an option for a further 100"

Chris

 

[Class377/5]

Putting OHEs on 3rd rail routes other than the pilot scheme between Southampton and Basingstoke won't be something that is carried out in the immediate future so getting replacements for 442s and 455s isn't higher priority than replacement for 313s, 507s, 508s, 142s and 150s.

We know the SWT 450s easily convert to AC, through the creation of the 350/1s, which will be adequate for the pilot scheme.

Indeed, every Siemens has said its a simple matter of putting pan and transformer in and adjusting the software becaused Siemens thought it through. Current 378 fleet can only be extended one car more because Bombardier didn't plan enough ahead.

Note as well timescales for 3rd rail to OHLE is a fair few years off. The Lectristar and Desiro fleets might see put thier days on DC yet.

They aren't - the press release states that the extra 40 vehicles and the order for up to 216 Dual Voltage vehicles are seperate.

Chris

Wrong. The order announced today is dual voltage five cars.

Firstly, with the approval of the Department for Transport, it intends to exercise an existing option for 40 new Electrostar carriages from train manufacturer Bombardier, a run on to its 130 carriage order announced at the end of last year.

The 40 vehicles will be in 5 car formation with dual voltage configuration, will cost c£60 million in total and it is expected that they will be delivered during 2014 for service entry in December of that year.

How is that not an order for five car dual voltage units?

The order for the addition 116+100 is separate.

 

[Chris125]

Wrong. The order announced today is dual voltage five cars.

Apologies, my mistake. A rather curious decision if the existing order for 5-car units isn't Dual Voltage too.

Chris

 

[tbtc]

Just when you think that train lengths are being standardised, we get more five coach trains?

Is the current standard of interior suitable for Airport services though?

The first two local services to go over to electric in the North West will be Liverpool-Manchester Airport and Liverpool-Manchester Victoria.

The former attracts a lot of business use and obviously luggage and there have been calls for whatever replaces the 156s to be better suited for Airport use

Many Southern trains serve Gatwick Airport but nobody is arguing that they all need to have large luggage areas etc.

Ordering anything 3rd rail only from now on is silly given what was said in the CP5 HLOS -this is the first order since. The easy to convert to Dual voltage policy of the last decade would seem to have been replaced by Dual voltage from new

Apart from the 460s I can't think of any Third Rail stock introduced in recent years that wasn't dual voltage or easily convertible to dual voltage. Good stuff.

 

[LNW-GW Joint]

How many units do you reckon will be needed for the second phase wiring?

Basic Dec 2014 requirement is 3 units for LIV-Airport, 3 for LIV-Warrington, 3 for LIV-Manchester Vic and 4 for LIV-Wigan (more if extended to Preston).
Of course the services might be revised by then.
eg you could run Liverpool-Crewe/Stoke via Manchester if desired.
So at least 12 units for Liverpool services, with backup.
Extras also needed to displace DMUs from routes out of Piccadilly.
I would guess a minimum fleet of 16 units is needed initially.
The next lot will be needed by May 2016 (Blackpool route available, Bolton route shortly after).

 

[northwichcat]

Many Southern trains serve Gatwick Airport but nobody is arguing that they all need to have large luggage areas etc.

I don't know how much luggage is on the Gatwick Airport services but the 156s on Liverpool-Manchester Airport services don't provide adequate luggage capacity for the amount of luggage on the services and on some it's actually worst than the North TPE 185s on the Friday afternoon of the last Friday in university term times. I don't think it's so much of an issue on the stoppers as there's less people travelling to the Airport to get away and more people travelling there because they work there.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

Basic Dec 2014 requirement is 3 units for LIV-Airport, 3 for LIV-Warrington, 3 for LIV-Manchester Vic and 4 for LIV-Wigan (more if extended to Preston).

Not correct I'm afraid.

Dec 2014 should see the Victoria-Liverpool service become half-hourly instead of the Bank Quay turnback. TfGM have been pushing for that change for a while and IIRC it was originally proposed for Dec 2012.

3 units for Liverpool-Airport is very optimistic when 5 are used currently and pathing on Chat Moss will become more difficult with more services.

 

[tbtc]

Basic Dec 2014 requirement is 3 units for LIV-Airport

3 units for Liverpool-Airport is very optimistic when 5 are used currently and pathing on Chat Moss will become more difficult with more services.

1h9 in one direction, 1h7 in the other direction?
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

I don't know how much luggage is on the Gatwick Airport services but the 156s on Liverpool-Manchester Airport services don't provide adequate luggage capacity for the amount of luggage on the services and on some it's actually worst than the North TPE 185s on the Friday afternoon of the last Friday in university term times. I don't think it's so much of an issue on the stoppers as there's less people travelling to the Airport to get away and more people travelling there because they work there

The Gatwick EMUs seem to cope okay, even the ones that also serve Luton Airport or Southampton Airport. Nothing unique about Manchester Airport AGAICS.

 

[158722]

Basic Dec 2014 requirement is 3 units for LIV-Airport, 3 for LIV-Warrington, 3 for LIV-Manchester Vic and 4 for LIV-Wigan (more if extended to Preston).
Of course the services might be revised by then.
eg you could run Liverpool-Crewe/Stoke via Manchester if desired.
So at least 12 units for Liverpool services, with backup.
Extras also needed to displace DMUs from routes out of Piccadilly.
I would guess a minimum fleet of 16 units is needed initially.
The next lot will be needed by May 2016 (Blackpool route available, Bolton route shortly after).

I worked it out 3 units for LIV-Airport, 2 for LIV-Warrington (all of which could go electric from May-Dec 2014 I think), then 4 for LIV-Wigan and 3 for LIV South Parkway-Preston (if Blackpools cut back temporarily, replaced by diesels via Bolton) leaving 5 for LIV-Manchester Vic (if cut back from existing Stalybridge terminus).

There are also a few diesel turns under the wires currently due to a lack of EMUs (a few Hazel Grove turns?), so something like 16 EMUs required by the end of 2014 as you say. Not worked out the requirement for May 2016, but total will be something around the 40 mark I would think - based on existing turns - hopefully the sparks effect with extra capacity and better trains will push ridership up further.

 

[northwichcat]

1h9 in one direction, 1h7 in the other direction?

I was told there are 4 x 156 diagrams and 1 x 150 diagram on Lime Street-Airport services so maybe that includes a unit swap.

I get four units needed for first thing in the morning (and as the frequency remains hourly throughout the day that doesn't change for peak/off-peak) but the current timetable definitely can't be worked with three units

diagram 1
03:38 Airport-Lime Street arrives 04:34
05:13 Lime Street-Airport arrives 06:14
06:41 Airport-Lime Strreet arrives 07:49

diagram 2
03:38 Lime Street-Airport arrives 04:30
04:38 Airport-Lime Street arrives 05:36
06:13 Lime Street-Airport arrives 07:22
...

diagram 3
05:13 Lime Street-Airport arrives 06:14
06:41 Airport-Lime Street arrives 07:49
...

diagram 4
07:13 Lime Street-Airport arrives 08:22
...

 

[Class377/5]

Apologies, my mistake. A rather curious decision if the existing order for 5-car units isn't Dual Voltage too.

Chris

I thought it was strange too but if used on WCML it makes more sense as it gives more capacity via Souther services while allowing a cascade.

Just when you think that train lengths are being standardised, we get more five coach trains?

Many Southern trains serve Gatwick Airport but nobody is arguing that they all need to have large luggage areas etc.

Apart from the 460s I can't think of any Third Rail stock introduced in recent years that wasn't dual voltage or easily convertible to dual voltage. Good stuff.

Indeed when you think the South East runs on four cars variants, Southern starts mixing things up. Just hope these Electrostars are able to have an extra car inserted.

If Southern/FCC serve Gatwick then Mnchester won't be an issue.

Dec 2014 should see the Victoria-Liverpool service become half-hourly instead of the Bank Quay turnback. TfGM have been pushing for that change for a while and IIRC it was originally proposed for Dec 2012.

3 units for Liverpool-Airport is very optimistic when 5 are used currently and pathing on Chat Moss will become more difficult with more services.

So we're talking about 12-15 units really?

 

[LNW-GW Joint]

Not correct I'm afraid.
Dec 2014 should see the Victoria-Liverpool service become half-hourly instead of the Bank Quay turnback. TfGM have been pushing for that change for a while and IIRC it was originally proposed for Dec 2012.

3 units for Liverpool-Airport is very optimistic when 5 are used currently and pathing on Chat Moss will become more difficult with more services.

That's why I put 3 on WBQ services in case they were diverted to MCV, as happens in the peaks.
Doubling up units will not be needed with 4-car 319s.

1h9 in one direction, 1h7 in the other direction?

There are longish turn-rounds at Liverpool, and trains tend to work turn and turn about with Wigan/Warrington/MCV services.
There is quite a bit of slack time in the overall set of services.

I worked it out 3 units for LIV-Airport, 2 for LIV-Warrington (all of which could go electric from May-Dec 2014 I think), then 4 for LIV-Wigan and 3 for LIV South Parkway-Preston (if Blackpools cut back temporarily, replaced by diesels via Bolton) leaving 5 for LIV-Manchester Vic (if cut back from existing Stalybridge terminus).

There are also a few diesel turns under the wires currently due to a lack of EMUs (a few Hazel Grove turns?), so something like 16 EMUs required by the end of 2014 as you say. Not worked out the requirement for May 2016, but total will be something around the 40 mark I would think - based on existing turns - hopefully the sparks effect with extra capacity and better trains will push ridership up further.

5 for MCV?
The stopper journey time is currently 63min. One would expect a decent reduction with 319s and speed increases. It should only need a pair of units really, 3 is generous.

Blackpool only affects the Liverpool services as far as Northern is concerned
The big change comes with the Bolton route when eg Hazel Grove-Preston and Victoria-Blackpool go electric.

Then there's the piece in Rail this week which says 319s are incompatible with the new OHLE! 350s are apparently OK.
I don't think anything is really clear yet on the NW rolling stock front.

 

[northwichcat]

There are also a few diesel turns under the wires currently due to a lack of EMUs (a few Hazel Grove turns?)

Not actually a few Hazel Grove turns but in the morning peak there is a 2x150 combination on a Hazel Grove-Manchester service, as well as a 2x142 combination on a Macclesfield-Manchester service and a 2x142 combination on a Crewe-Manchester Oxford Rd service. (A 323 does provide more capacity than 2x142s.)

The evening peak now sees what was a 2x142 Manchester-Hazel Grove service, extend to Chinley. The previous Manchester-Hazel Grove service to that though is Pacer operated and doesn't extend beyond Hazel Grove.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

So we're talking about 12-15 units really?

The exact number will obviously depend on the exact timetable. As you can see I'm trying to point out that Liverpool-Airport with 3 units will be difficult, despite the claims that it's possible with 3 units due to the journey time.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

Blackpool only affects the Liverpool services as far as Northern is concerned

As far as Northern are concerned the franchise ends in 2014 and Blackpool-Liverpool won't be electric by then.

Then there's the piece in Rail this week which says 319s are incompatible with the new OHLE! 350s are apparently OK.

Interesting. I presume that's an issue with the 319s opposed to one with the new wires.

 

[87015]

The exact number will obviously depend on the exact timetable. As you can see I'm trying to point out that Liverpool-Airport with 3 units will be difficult, despite the claims that it's possible with 3 units due to the journey time.

Unless I'm missing something you've shown exactly that it can be done with three units as diagram 3 is just a repeat of content in diagram 1.

 

[LNW-GW Joint]

I was told there are 4 x 156 diagrams and 1 x 150 diagram on Lime Street-Airport services so maybe that includes a unit swap.

I get four units needed for first thing in the morning (and as the frequency remains hourly throughout the day that doesn't change for peak/off-peak) but the current timetable definitely can't be worked with three units

diagram 1
03:38 Airport-Lime Street arrives 04:34
05:13 Lime Street-Airport arrives 06:14
06:41 Airport-Lime Strreet arrives 07:49

diagram 2
03:38 Lime Street-Airport arrives 04:30
04:38 Airport-Lime Street arrives 05:36
06:13 Lime Street-Airport arrives 07:22
...

diagram 3
05:13 Lime Street-Airport arrives 06:14
06:41 Airport-Lime Street arrives 07:49
...

diagram 4
07:13 Lime Street-Airport arrives 08:22
...

Diagrams 1 and 3 look the same to me...
Actually it's not worth quibbling about the odd unit.
It'll come down to lease costs and seat-miles in the end.

 

[northwichcat]

Unless I'm missing something you've shown exactly that it can be done with three units as diagram 3 is just a repeat of content in diagram 1.

Grr. I got distracted multiple times while I was doing it. Maybe the higher number of diagrams come from unit swaps then. There always seems to be a lot of 156s at Lime Street in the off-peak period on a weekday.

 

[tbtc]

Indeed when you think the South East runs on four cars variants, Southern starts mixing things up. Just hope these Electrostars are able to have an extra car inserted

Agreed - just when you think things are getting standardised on a four/ eight/ twelve coach railway, along come five/ten coach trains...

...but then again, just when you think we are settling on 23m stock, we start designing 26m IEP!

If Southern/FCC serve Gatwick then Mnchester won't be an issue

Agreed

 

[northwichcat]

It'll come down to lease costs and seat-miles in the end.

Yes and while some people won't like it an operator would probably rather have a spare DMU that can go anywhere then reserve EMUs that can only fill in on electric routes.

 

[Class377/5]

Agreed - just when you think things are getting standardised on a four/ eight/ twelve coach railway, along come five/ten coach trains...

...but then again, just when you think we are settling on 23m stock, we start designing 26m IEP!

Agreed

Ah the crazy ideas they come up with!

The exact number will obviously depend on the exact timetable. As you can see I'm trying to point out that Liverpool-Airport with 3 units will be difficult, despite the claims that it's possible with 3 units due to the journey time.

Interesting. I presume that's an issue with the 319s opposed to one with the new wires.

Then there's the piece in Rail this week which says 319s are incompatible with the new OHLE! 350s are apparently OK.
I don't think anything is really clear yet on the NW rolling stock front.

Don't Roget that spares are needed too.

I don't buy this rail business. For a start they aren't technical mind publication and for a second why would the 350s be ok but not the 319s. Idea Network Rail designed new OHLE that's not suitable for the only rolling stock confirmed to be working under it is laughable. Then again that properly means its true.