What form would a theoretical HS3 take?

[tbtc]

Do we really need High Speed all the way to Cardiff/ Swansea? Since there are almost no local trains west of Didcot (until you reach Bath/ Bristol Parkway) there's not the same bottlenecks that you encounter on the WCML etc.

Presumably a HS3 would still be stopping at Swindon anyway? Or would people downgrade Swindon to something like Bedwyn gets (with only "non High Speed" services)?

Not many boats, especially those which use renewable fuels tend to be capable of carrying hundreds of passengers at 150mph plus though.

Why do we need 150mph boats?

If planes are no longer economic between the UK and Ireland then the alternative doesn't have to be underwater tunnels or nuclear power, it could just be normal boats like it used to be. No crazy science required.

 

[kylemore]

You'd be crossing the Irish Sea at its widest point...

Ahh but the line appears to go under the southern tip of the Isle of Man just where the Steam Railway terminates - just think of the enormous tax evasio.....I beg your pardon...avoidance market. Big important people could just jump on the steam train at Douglas and change onto HS3 and be in London to do important money stuff before brunch.

 

[Manchester77]

As part of the GWML upgrade isn't 140 mph running an option. If so then there'll be high speed IEP trains running post 2018. They'll run at the same speed as our domestic high speed services. Before a HS3 I'd say we need to sort out our other main lines. Get in cab signalling on ECML, and WCML(for the northern section especcially where HS2 isn't defiantly going)
Improve existing services before building new HSL

 

[Drsatan]

As part of the GWML upgrade isn't 140 mph running an option. If so then there'll be high speed IEP trains running post 2018. They'll run at the same speed as our domestic high speed services. Before a HS3 I'd say we need to sort out our other main lines. Get in cab signalling on ECML, and WCML(for the northern section especcially where HS2 isn't defiantly going)
Improve existing services before building new HSL

Unfortunately, you can only add so many extra train services before paths run out (especially for freight trains limited to 60mph), meaning that capacity has to be increased somehow, whether that means adding passing loops or resignalling, modifying the track layout to avoid conflicts at junctions, or all three. Doing any of these is very disruptive (the WCML upgrade required lengthy blockades) and can get expensive.

The other downside of installing cab signalling is that trains without cab signalling can't use the line - would you really want to see an ECML without steam-hauled charters?

Building HS2 & HS3 is the way forward unless we want to see repeats of the WCML upgrade.

 

[Trainfan344]

I think an Belfast to Dublin To Liverpool to Manchester to Peterborough to Norwich to Lowestoft to the Hook to Amsterdam high speed line should do it...

 

[transmanche]

The other downside of installing cab signalling is that trains without cab signalling can't use the line - would you really want to see an ECML without steam-hauled charters?

If that's the price to be paid to get faster and more frequent trains, then yes. The ECML isn't a museum!

However, in the same way that Tornado has TPWS and GSM-R cab radio, I'm sure it's not beyond the boffins to come up with mobile units for use on charter trains.

 

[Manchester77]

Unfortunately, you can only add so many extra train services before paths run out (especially for freight trains limited to 60mph), meaning that capacity has to be increased somehow, whether that means adding passing loops or resignalling, modifying the track layout to avoid conflicts at junctions, or all three. Doing any of these is very disruptive (the WCML upgrade required lengthy blockades) and can get expensive.

The other downside of installing cab signalling is that trains without cab signalling can't use the line - would you really want to see an ECML without steam-hauled charters?

Building HS2 & HS3 is the way forward unless we want to see repeats of the WCML upgrade.

I have very little technical knowledge so forgive me if I'm wrong but...
Can you not resignal the entire line with EMTMS (idk what it's called it's something like that) so that the entire system is in sync. That's probably unlikely because you'd need to do over 400 miles but according to a recent bbc program you'd need a reader on the underside and a screen inside. Idk about the steamers...

 

[GRALISTAIR]

Whatever happens with future HSx lines, I'd like to see them eventually all go in/out of the same London terminus! If we're going to be making long distance Intercity journeys with changes in London, it would be nice to not have to factor in the best part of an hour for a cross-London interchange!

I agree but with cross-rail , Thameslink etc, will that be a huge factor in future?

 

[Nym]

I have very little technical knowledge so forgive me if I'm wrong but...
Can you not resignal the entire line with EMTMS (idk what it's called it's something like that) so that the entire system is in sync. That's probably unlikely because you'd need to do over 400 miles but according to a recent bbc program you'd need a reader on the underside and a screen inside. Idk about the steamers...

Very difficult to pull this off with ETCS, there is a lot of associated equipment with the current implementations of the system.

However, if ERTMS / ETCS was implemented alongside the current signalling system as a form of in cab signalling with enhanced DDT speed authorisation, then steamers and non-fitted units could traverse the new sections fine.

 

[AndyLandy]

I agree but with cross-rail , Thameslink etc, will that be a huge factor in future?

That largely depends on:

• Whether the HS terminals coincide with the Crossrail/Thameslink ones.
• How fast/frequent the Crossrail/Thameslink services are.
• Where the Crossrail/Thameslink platforms are (If they're underground, there's little difference between them and the tube)

 

[sprinterguy]

Do we really need High Speed all the way to Cardiff/ Swansea? Since there are almost no local trains west of Didcot (until you reach Bath/ Bristol Parkway) there's not the same bottlenecks that you encounter on the WCML etc.

I'm not convinced that there is a need for high speed rail all the way to Swansea either, which is why I stated "IF there is to be a phase 3 [of HS3]". I was just laying out all of my envisaged possibilities. I like the idea of bringing West Wales closer to the capital in terms of journey time, but I recognise that the very, very low frequency of trains that would be generated by a high speed line west of Cardiff would fall far short of justifying the line. Such a route would be driven far more by political motivations than economic ones.

As for high speed 3 continuing as far as Cardiff, or as in my example, to somewhere inbetween Severn Tunnel Junction and Newport, the Severn Tunnel is already recognised as a pinch point on capacity in the area, and it is not a great distance from Bristol Parkway, where HS3 trains would otherwise rejoin the GWML, so why not? Other than the fact that crossing the Severn would no doubt represent the greatest part of the capital expenditure on the project, and dramaticaly add to the complexity of the build, admittedly...

Presumably a HS3 would still be stopping at Swindon anyway? Or would people downgrade Swindon to something like Bedwyn gets (with only "non High Speed" services)?

I would assume that there would continue to be a service on the GWML between London Paddington and Bristol, in order to serve the intermediate markets on the route and stopping at all the major stations. Swindon is sufficiently close to London that I don't think that routing HS3 through the middle of Swindon would serve to offer a great deal of additional benefit over the town being served by classic line services, and a parkway station on HS3 for the wider area might be of greater utility to those that live outside of Swindon anyway.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

A new alignment would save time past Tiv PW, but then that would also speed up conventional services too. There definitely needs to be some investment in the SW but I'm not really sure this is the best place to spend it yet.

I'm inclined to agree with all of your comments to be honest: I have answered this thread in the spirit that it was intended, but I do not necessarily see HS3 as being at the top of the list of investment opportunities for the South West region. I will however point out that, based on the proposed opening dates for the two phases of HS2, the earliest date that a first phase of HS3 could open would be around 2040. Under my proposal, HS3 would not reach Devon under phase 2 until closer to 2050. HS3 might be a very palatable option by that time.

 

[Kali]

P'haps we can build a new formation in the SW suitable for HS rail sometime in the future, but for now install & more importantly maintain it to rather cheaper conventional standards - when equipment's up for renewal then that might be a time to look at higher speed.

The economy is a bit odd down here - other than rapidly expanding Exeter there's only really Plymouth as a major and somewhat declining centre. A new much faster line might give Plymouth a nice boost or it might be a total white elephant given how the airport there just went bust, but I suppose it's worth giving some study time.

Cornwall seems to wangle all sorts of regional bonuses, maybe they can start building it

 

[brianthegiant]

I see the scottish government are planning a Glasgow- Edinburgh HS line to connect to future HS2 extension:
www.acadvertiser.co.uk/lanarkshire-news/scottish-news/2012/11/12/65864-32216470/

Sturgeon hails high-speed rail plan
Nov 12 2012

A high-speed railway line could connect Scotland's two largest cities within 12 years as part of a plan to encourage a UK-wide link.The Scottish Government wants to press ahead between Glasgow and Edinburgh before the UK Government has committed to bring its High Speed 2 (HS2) project north of the border.

Deputy First Minister Nicola Sturgeon said the Scottish proposal would almost halve journey times between the two cities to less than 30 minutes by 2024.

The plan is at its earliest stage, with no costs attached or route map drawn.
It is also not known whether the link would be to existing or new stations, a spokeswoman said.

Launching the proposal in Glasgow, Ms Sturgeon said: "We now know that, within just 12 years, we could build a line which will see journey times between our two major cities cut to less than half an hour. "That will benefit our businesses, our jobs market and also our tourism industry, and it will put us up there with the world's greatest transport networks. "We will not wait for Westminster to bring high-speed rail to us. We have already made moves towards seeing a high-speed line in Scotland and the evidence is now in place that this is feasible long before the HS2 proposals.

"The Scottish Government will now enter into talks with our partners in both cities and the rail industry to see how we can work together to see this vision realised: a Glasgow-Edinburgh high-speed line which can connect to the network from England."

Seems like a logical approach to start the HS network from the Scottish end, since that will grow the rail market north of the border.

I wonder if there will be a market for a Dublin-Belfast HS line in future? that would make a logical precursor to a fixed link to Britain.

 

[dalmahoyhill]

Well the inner geek in me took a look at extending HS2 to scotland or call it HS3 if you like when I had a spare day or so at work between projects. The SNP has mentioned if the full HS2 goes ahead it will fund a line down the the border. Maybe in 2050 we can have 2.5hour trains to london?

As I have access to Autocad and geograhic data I had a quick look at routes and the extent of structures required. So for 225-250mph line with a curve radius of 7000m and a generous max gradient of 1:50 so that continental guage freight trains could use the line overnight.

I have produced a few PDF plans of a route but they are 20mb each, will upload when I get round to it.
WCML
You can broadly follow the existing m74 wcml corridor up from carlisle. A cut and cover tunnel through gretna is required due to the sharp turn after the solway firth. Over beattock the line needs to run predominately in tunnel due to the windy valleys. At crawford following the WCML down the clyde valley to Carstairs doesnt really work the valley is too windy and there is a sharp curve round to carstairs. The best route is to follow the M74 over the hills to happendon services and the glasgow line shadows the M74 all the way into hamilton. At Happendon services a edinburgh spur can branch east and either connect onto the carstairs edinburgh line or duplicate the line into edinburgh.

The big problem is where do you fit terminus’s in either city? There is no space at glasgow central, and the line in from uddingston is congested. I would suggest following the m74 through hamilton and uddinston, tunneling under mount vernon and duplicating the airdrie line into belgrove. Constructing a new HS2 terminus on the old yards above glasgow high street. Constructing glasgow cross rail on the old tron line would allow connections at this new terminal.

Also how would you take HS2 into Edinburgh? If HS2 duplicated the carstairs line it could have cut across from livingston and connected into the glasgow edinburgh line at edinburgh park. Now the tram has been started the corridor alongside that line is now built on. I have no easy answers for getting 400m long high speed trains into waverly from the west. Spend the 800 mill to turn more of waverely into through platforms? Build a new tunnel between waverley and haymarket? Try and shoe more trains on the existing haymarket waverly line? Build a terminus outside the centre? None are good.

I haven’t had a look at a ECML route but newcastle to berwick is flat and straightforward. Suggest crosss the tweed west of berwick at whiteadder water and then parallel the ecml at reston, tunnel in a straight line over granthouse. Duplicate the ecml to dunbar then follow the A1 dual carrigeway over to haddington and join the ECML at musselbourogh. Which leaves plenty of existing capacity into Waverley in this route and spare capacity on the platforms this end.