TOC Contract Changes-what would you implement?

[Roverman]

With all the fallout coming from the WCML franchise and all other franchise bids currently on hold there is every chance that the whole setup could be changed in the near future.

When setting out the contracts what would you like to see getting onto the 'small print'.

e.g If a TOC offers a First Class Carriage what is the minimum level of standard you would accept in that carriage over and above Standard?

 

[Simon11]

With all the fallout coming from the WCML franchise and all other franchise bids currently on hold there is every chance that the whole setup could be changed in the near future.

When setting out the contracts what would you like to see getting onto the 'small print'.

e.g If a TOC offers a First Class Carriage what is the minimum level of standard you would accept in that carriage over and above Standard?

I would like to see padding restrictions in the t&c. I regularly check the app when I'm on a train and you can see the timings for all the stations. There's been so many example of when a train started off late, say 8minutes. During the journey it gets later to around 10minutes. Then bang, the last station it arrives on time, right under ppm! I agree with padding, however there should be limits otherwise tocs are making their ppm better! Padding should be spread across a journey with only a few minutes at the last stop, as analysis shows that people prefer padding so they arrive at their final station on time.

 

[Cherry_Picker]

Is there any particular reason for that, or does it just annoy you? I ask because it is clearly better to put most of the padding at a station/platform where the train is diagrammed to stand for quite a long time anyway rather than in the middle of a trip, possibly at a station which is a bottleneck, just to make things a bit more symmetrical for some reason.

 

[calc7]

e.g If a TOC offers a First Class Carriage what is the minimum level of standard you would accept in that carriage over and above Standard?

Ok go on then - if the advertised standard of First Class service is not available for the journey, then the customer should have grounds to claim redress. No more East Coast "subject to availability".

 

[yorksrob]

Well, I think it's time the "no growth" element of the Northern Franchise were re-visited. I'd also require the next franchisee to do something about 142 seating.

 

[Roverman]

Calc7-I think the 'subject to availability' is there as a get out clause to avoid being sued in this litigious world we now live in. However I fully agree that efforts should be made to ensure that it is the rare exception rather than the norm to receive a sub-first class service.

YorksRob-I've not yet travelled on a Northern, can you give me some background detail?

 

[D841 Roebuck]

Ticket inspection on stations to be carried out ONLY by employees of a TOC - no subcontracting.

 

[Simon11]

Is there any particular reason for that, or does it just annoy you? I ask because it is clearly better to put most of the padding at a station/platform where the train is diagrammed to stand for quite a long time anyway rather than in the middle of a trip, possibly at a station which is a bottleneck, just to make things a bit more symmetrical for some reason.

Clearly if you have a busy route, you can't stop a train for an extra minute. However where possible the padding should be spread throughout the journey. With london tocs they put the padding at the london end which clearly looks like they are abusing it to make their ppm better. For the passenger travelling from the start and getting off at the last stop before london therefore are more likely to be late at their final station.

 

[ainsworth74]

I've not yet travelled on a Northern, can you give me some background detail?

When the current Northern franchise was let back in December 2004 it was done so on the basis that there would be 'no growth'. Meaning that the SRA (who was in charge of franchising at that point) made the assumption that passenger numbers would remain fairly static and therefore bidders/government would not be required to spend money on new rolling stock and other capacity enhancements. They would also not be required to spend much on refurbishing rolling stock and stations.

This was clearly a bad idea and is one of the main reasons why Northern struggle so much for capacity and with one of the oldest train fleets in GB. In fairness to the TOC they have managed to lobby PTEs and the DfT to get them extra rolling stock above what they're supposed to have but it's still not very much. Further they have undertaken some light refurbishments of their rolling stock and stations.

So I assume yorksrob's point would be that when the franchise is re-let (theoretically in 2014 but with the fallout from the ICWC debacle who knows when) that it should/can not be done on the basis of 'no growth'. ATW is another franchise that is saddled with a 'no growth' assumption in it's franchise agreement and is suffering the consequences.

 

[yorksrob]

YorksRob-I've not yet travelled on a Northern, can you give me some background detail?

Basically, the franchise was let on the basis that there wouldn't be any major investment to increase capacity. To their credit, Northern have actually encouraged some passenger growth and have attempted to cope with this by obtaining spare units where available, but there's not been any major investment.

Electrification in the Manchester area will bring some additional units in, but I think a new franchise should allow for displaced units to remain with Northern to deal with overcrowding and provide capacity for growth.
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So I assume yorksrob's point would be that when the franchise is re-let (theoretically in 2014 but with the fallout from the ICWC debacle who knows when) that it should/can not be done on the basis of 'no growth'. ATW is another franchise that is saddled with a 'no growth' assumption in it's franchise agreement and is suffering the consequences.

You assume correctly

 

[Roverman]

Basically, the franchise was let on the basis that there wouldn't be any major investment to increase capacity. To their credit, Northern have actually encouraged some passenger growth and have attempted to cope with this by obtaining spare units where available, but there's not been any major investment.

Electrification in the Manchester area will bring some additional units in, but I think a new franchise should allow for displaced units to remain with Northern to deal with overcrowding and provide capacity for growth.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---


You assume correctly

Thanks Ainsworth74 and YorksRob for those explanations, whilst reading them I actually remembered that I have travelled on a Northern service (albeit for a brief amount of time) and found it to be exactly as you both stated. I went from Piccadilly to Deansgate on a mid morning service one Sunday (I was visiting MOSI). The train was so full it was almost impossible to walk through it, and for some reason the platform staff would not allow it to leave the station at its allotted time and did not communicate with us about what the delay was about.

I found it that upsetting that when I left MOSI I got out my map and decided even if it took me all day I would walk back to Piccadilly!

 

[martinsh]

1. TOCs to be compelled to provide refreshment facilities on all journeys over a certain length ( 90 mins ? )
2. TOCs to provide quiet coaches on all trains over a certain length (4 coaches ?)
3. TOCs to provide day return ticketing for all journeys where return travel might be reasonably expect on the same day (3 hours journey time each way ?)
4. Padding should be spread throughout the journey
5. All stations over given footfalls should be staffed
6. TOCs should be fined heavily if trains are cancelled due to lack of staff

 

[Qwerty133]

all trains to have at least 76 seats

 

[cjohnson]

I'd like a consistent compensation system for passengers affected by delays. For example if I wished to take a train from Dorking to London around 12pm on a weekday there would be the choice of SWT to Waterloo or Southern to Victoria which both take 50 minutes.

If my chosen train broke down en route and delayed me by 45 mins, then Southern would refund 50% of the ticket, but SWT £nil. If that delay was 75 minutes then both Southern and SWT's refund would be 100%. Yet if there was sudden heavy snowfall at (say) Ashtead which delayed me by 90 mins, Southern would refund 100% but SWT have a get-out clause of said snowfall "being beyond the control of the rail industry".

 

[ainsworth74]

That one is already happening. Once a current franchise is re-franchised it will use Delay Repay for the compensation scheme (which is, in general, more generous than the original scheme).

 

[cjohnson]

That one is already happening. Once a current franchise is re-franchised it will use Delay Repay for the compensation scheme (which is, in general, more generous than the original scheme).

That's good to know (but when is the South West franchise up for renewal?)

 

[ainsworth74]

Assuming nothing dramatic happens in the meantime the current SWT franchise expires 3 February 2017 having run from 4 February 2007.

 

[Roverman]

As we find out about this http://www.railforums.co.uk/showthread.php?t=74328 it makes me wonder if there shouldn't be a rule banning TOCs from applying for other franchises until they are running their existing line to a satisfactory level.

 

[ainsworth74]

Define satisfactory? I don't see Abellio/Serco as being in breech of the franchise agreement they signed when they took on the Northern franchise, indeed to an extent they've gone above and beyond what they were required to do.

 

[The Planner]

Clearly if you have a busy route, you can't stop a train for an extra minute. However where possible the padding should be spread throughout the journey. With london tocs they put the padding at the london end which clearly looks like they are abusing it to make their ppm better. For the passenger travelling from the start and getting off at the last stop before london therefore are more likely to be late at their final station.

Looks like I need to explain "padding" for the 4534th time. There is no padding in schedules per se, there is a PTT vs WTT differential, it is a completely different thing. Now that you have sites like Opentraintimes and the like you will see the differentials staring you in the face. If a TOC decides to make use of them for their own gains at the end of schedules then so be it, they are exploiting a loophole. PTT vs WTT has some good uses as it enables a clockface timetable even if it isn't possible in the WTT as you can negatively adjust a public departure mid-journey and if the train is able to depart before the WTT time it can do so. It is, however, forbidden to have a minus PTT differential at the terminus. If that is occuring then it is slapped wrist time...

Adding "padding" mid-way through schedules would require changing WTT times and thus making schedules slower and eating up capacity unnecessarilly. Either that or you have trains arriving in the timetable after they depart....

 

[Roverman]

Define satisfactory? I don't see Abellio/Serco as being in breech of the franchise agreement they signed when they took on the Northern franchise, indeed to an extent they've gone above and beyond what they were required to do.

I've not said they are in breach, I just feel that when a TOC has just taken over an area they should be concentrating on getting that area up to standard before chasing other more lucrative lines.

 

[ainsworth74]

However my point was that if they're doing what they're franchise requires them then how are they not performing satisfactorily? Personally I'm qutie happy with Northern Rail I think they do a good job with what they have. However, my feelings on the way that the DfT and SRA have treated the franchise...

So you want a clause that states companies cannot bid for other franchises until they're running any existing ones 'satisfactorily' however we come back to what metrics you're using to define 'satisfactorily'?

 

[Roverman]

Firstly thank you for using the word 'satisfactorily' I wasn't sure if it was a word earlier and ended up restructuring my sentence to suit!

My comments weren't directed at Northern per se but their news made me think about it. A lot of TOCs seem to get 1 line and then want another, probably because it makes more money. Arriva, First and Abellio all have mutliple lines, which very often have problems and people on here complaining about them. It therefore seems odd that they would want to add to their complications. Therefore any TOC that has a customer satisfaction rating below 95% over says 3 consecutive quarters is barred from applying for additional franchises in other areas until it improves.

 

[ainsworth74]

A lot of TOCs seem to get 1 line and then want another, probably because it makes more money. Arriva, First and Abellio all have mutliple lines, which very often have problems and people on here complaining about them. It therefore seems odd that they would want to add to their complications.

But the problem with that view is that it ignores that each franchise is, effectively, an independent operation from the other. First Capital Connect is for all intents and purposes a completely different company from First Great Western, they just share a parent. I believe Virgin marketed their two TOCs as one but they were still independent operations. Further franchises are very different from one another. First Hull Trains is very different to First Capital Connect. East Midlands Trains is quite different to South West Trains. But all those examples are run by the same parent company.

Therefore any TOC that has a customer satisfaction rating below 95% over says 3 consecutive quarters is barred from applying for additional franchises in other areas until it improves.

Well that will make franchise competitions easier as Stagecoach, First, Arriva, National Express, Virgin, Go-Ahead, Abellio, Serco and DB would all be barred from bidding.

 

[Lewisham2221]

Firstly thank you for using the word 'satisfactorily' I wasn't sure if it was a word earlier and ended up restructuring my sentence to suit!

My comments weren't directed at Northern per se but their news made me think about it. A lot of TOCs seem to get 1 line and then want another, probably because it makes more money. Arriva, First and Abellio all have mutliple lines, which very often have problems and people on here complaining about them. It therefore seems odd that they would want to add to their complications. Therefore any TOC that has a customer satisfaction rating below 95% over says 3 consecutive quarters is barred from applying for additional franchises in other areas until it improves.

It seems to be a strange quirk of transport franchising/tendering that operators tend to fall in and out of favour with the franchising/tendering authority, picking up lots of contracts in quick succession, often before losing all/most of them in a similar fashion at later re-tendering/re-franchising. This may well come down to the financial situation of the operator/parent group at any one time. Just look at NatEx, who held a jolly good number of rail franchises up until the mid/late 00's, and their more recent financial woes, and now First with FCC, FGW, FSR, FTPE etc.

 

[tbtc]

I've not said they are in breach, I just feel that when a TOC has just taken over an area they should be concentrating on getting that area up to standard before chasing other more lucrative lines.

Abellio have been (co) running Northern for eight years "just taken over"?

 

[Sadsmileyface]

Ticket inspection on stations to be carried out ONLY by employees of a TOC - no subcontracting.

I agree with this wholeheartedly. No more temp staff.

 

[Tomonthetrain]

Or G4S (Great 4 SodAll)

 

[Roverman]

I agree with this wholeheartedly. No more temp staff.

I'm surprised the Unions allowed it in the first place.

 

[Masbroughlad]

1) Much better on board catering provision (- from a fixed counter?)
2) Hot food / meals available on long distance intercity services (bring it back to XC)
3) Stiff penalties for overcrowding. Recognise that there will be idle time for stock at quiet times if peak demand is to be met (as it should be). Encourage creative use of 'idle' stock at wekends etc. ie meet the highest demand, not the lowest.
4) No bus seats on trains
5) Bring back a sensible approach to holding connections