Penalty Fare Charge within the Oyster Card Area

[emjass]

Hello,

Although this had been happened for a while ago, I am still unsure that whether the Penalty Fare Charge that I received from Southeastern service at London Victoria is a valid one and if not, how should I response to the officer, who is being rude and not assuring. I will put forward my whole story with details and can anyone give some recommendations for future reference?

I visited London one day realizing that I forgot to bring my Oyster card and so I purchased one at Euston Square LU station with £5 stored inside the card. I travelled from Euston Square to Paddington, Paddington to Bond Street and Bond Street to Waterloo Station (which I did tap in and out as these stations have gates). The funny thing is that every time I exit at the barrier, the remaining balance is still £3.10 and as I am in a hurry, I ignored it (which I believe I shouldn't have done that and the gate shouldn't have let me passing through when I make my journey from Bond Street to Waterloo anyway as it doesn't have sufficient fund for the minimum charge of £2) and got charged £6.50 for the maximum fare, which is still higher than the total (£5.7 in total). I found this out only when I was checking my balance in Waterloo East station, which has a balance of £-1.50. As a result, I topped out £10 to cover my journey to Welling and return.

I entered at Waterloo East station and did tap in at Waterloo East station and board the train to Welling station, which I also make sure that I did tap out this time as I wouldn't want to receive another maximum fare of £6.50. However, it once again failed and charged me £6.50, which I didn't find that out until at London Victoria station. I made 2 bus journeys which gives me a remainder of £0.70 on the oyster card, which again wasn't the balance showed when I board the bus at the second time.

At Welling station, which is a Sunday morning when I am about to make the journey from Welling to London Victoria, the gate was wide open with no one at the ticket office and I did find out that it was a red light when I pass through the gate, but it just say error with no explanation and I couldn't find any staff to get it sorted out for me, I decided to board the train to London Victoria and see if I can get help at the station. However, I was then being pointed by the gate staff to the Revenue Protection officer and being charged the penalty fare of £20 and no success in repealing.

Here are the few questions I've got:
1. Am I correct that I should approach the staff and the London Victoria station (where my final destination is) and see if they can sort out my ticket as there is no one at Welling station who could help me with the gate wide open without being charge? (As this shows my intention to pay for my fare)
2. Even if I am being catch with insufficient fund (as Oyster card rules stated), can I get full adult fare ticket instead as the National Rail Conditions
of Carriage stated instead of the Penalty Fare of £20?
3. Being unsure if there is a CCTV at Welling station for the exit at the platform to Dartford, I didn't request for a refund of the penalty fare that I was being charged, I wonder if there is anyone here who knows if there is one so that next time I can ask for a refund?
4. I am aware according to TfL Revenue Enforcement and Prosecutions Policy being that being the Revenue Prosecutors can charge me the Penalty Fare, they should first send me a Verification letter before charging me, will this be the case for Southeastern as well as I am travelling using the Oyster Card, which is a system by TfL?

Sorry for being such a long thread, but I really want to get this answered as I am quite curious on how should I resolve such event if it happens again in the future (hope it does not...)

 

[island]

1. You should have operated the help point at Welling station or purchased a paper ticket or top up as your Oyster card was not validating.
2. They are within their rights to charge you a Penalty Fare as there are ticketing facilities (a vending machine) at Welling.
3. The existence or not of CCTV isn't very relevant; if you phone the number on the back of your Oyster card and explain the situation they will probably arrange a refund of the maximum cash fares, but not the Penalty Fare.
4. TfL's revenue enforcement policies have no bearing on your journey which was by a National Rail service.

 

[MikeWh]

Hello again,

How long ago were your problems with Southeastern at Victoria? Could it have been last year (i.e. 2011)? Last year the zone 1 tube charge was £1.90 which tallies with £5 going down to £3.10. If you used different gatelines at Paddington but only spent around 20 minutes between touch out and touch in again it is possible that the Oyster system joined those two journeys together as one. That would explain your balance remaining at £3.10 after the second journey.

Unfortunately the Oyster system only keeps individual history for eight weeks, so if you didn't get a journey statement at the time there is no way of checking now. If you checked your balance after touching in at Waterloo East it would have included the maximum journey charge for the journey being made. After checking the balance, did you touch in again? That might have put you out with just a single zone 1 NR charge which would then mean that touching out at Welling would put you back in with the full maximum journey charge.

If you tried to enter Welling another day with only 70p balance then the system would not have given you a green light because you need at least the minimum fare from that station (currently around £1.50). That would explain the red light.

If you have the journey history, or can still get it because it was within the last eight weeks, then I'll happily take a look and try and explain exactly what happened.

 

[yorkie]

Sorry for being such a long thread, but I really want to get this answered as I am quite curious on how should I resolve such event if it happens again in the future (hope it does not...)

For the future, my advice is this:

• Open an Oyster online account (or log in to an existing account, if you already have one) and add your Oyster card to it (you can add more than one card to your account)
• Set up auto-topup

If you are charged a higher fare than you were expecting, log in to your account after approx 24-48 hours after the journey, get your web browser window to display the journey history in a readable format that we can then help you with, hold down Alt and press Print Screen on your keyboard. Then save the screenshot in an image editor (PNG or JPG as the format) and upload it as an attachment. We will then be in a position to analyse the journey history and assist you.

(Alternatively you can contact the Oyster helpdesk)
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

At Welling station, which is a Sunday morning when I am about to make the journey from Welling to London Victoria, the gate was wide open with no one at the ticket office and I did find out that it was a red light when I pass through the gate, but it just say error with no explanation and I couldn't find any staff to get it sorted out for me, I decided to board the train to London Victoria and see if I can get help at the station. However, I was then being pointed by the gate staff to the Revenue Protection officer and being charged the penalty fare of £20 and no success in repealing.

Here are the few questions I've got:
1. Am I correct that I should approach the staff and the London Victoria station (where my final destination is) and see if they can sort out my ticket as there is no one at Welling station who could help me with the gate wide open without being charge? (As this shows my intention to pay for my fare)

According to National Rail Enquiries for [stn]WLI[/stn] there is a ticket vending machine (TVM) that allows you to tup-up Oyster cards. In fact, looking at the map, there should be two.

Were both TVMs not working? If that was the case, the Penalty Fare is not valid, as if there was no ticket office open and no functioning TVM then a PF cannot be charged.

If the machine was working then the Penalty Fare is correct.

If you want to show your intention to pay the fare, I recommend use the Help Point, and report the fault with the machine(s).

2. Even if I am being catch with insufficient fund (as Oyster card rules stated), can I get full adult fare ticket instead as the National Rail Conditions of Carriage stated instead of the Penalty Fare of £20?

If the ticket machine was not working at all, then you are entitled to the "appropriate" fare at your destination. What that means in this particular case is unclear but it would mean at worst the cheapest available cash single would be payable.

 

[emjass]

1. You should have operated the help point at Welling station or purchased a paper ticket or top up as your Oyster card was not validating.
2. They are within their rights to charge you a Penalty Fare as there are ticketing facilities (a vending machine) at Welling.

From reading about other threads about the barrier gate under National Rail, shouldn't it be at least be manned by a staff at the station (which there isn't one at that time) since the gate is open. (or could it be described at attended because there is CCTV on site?) Moreover, the message shown on the barrier is unclear as it only says "error", which does not include a message or whatsoever whether if there is a fault of my card or if there is insufficient balance on the card. However, now I understand that I should contact the Help Point then.

One question though, if it is due to the reason that I have little time, because of the train will be arriving in few minutes, and if I do happen to deal with the card at the Help Point I will miss the train, should I catch the train (as the next train will only come 30 mins later) or should I hop on the train and hopefully deal with it at London Victoria station?

4. TfL's revenue enforcement policies have no bearing on your journey which was by a National Rail service.

Since it is a National Rail service, what defines should I be charged the penalty fare or charged the fare that I should pay for the trip? Because according to the National Rail Conditions of Carriage, it seems to be unclear about which fare should I be charged.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

Hello again,

How long ago were your problems with Southeastern at Victoria? Could it have been last year (i.e. 2011)? Last year the zone 1 tube charge was £1.90 which tallies with £5 going down to £3.10. If you used different gatelines at Paddington but only spent around 20 minutes between touch out and touch in again it is possible that the Oyster system joined those two journeys together as one. That would explain your balance remaining at £3.10 after the second journey.

However, it appears to be also remaining balance of £3.10 after exiting at Waterloo from Bond Street, which is the reason why I believe that my Oyster card is faulty. I've actually contacted the TfL about such matter and they have refunded me on that.

Unfortunately the Oyster system only keeps individual history for eight weeks, so if you didn't get a journey statement at the time there is no way of checking now. If you checked your balance after touching in at Waterloo East it would have included the maximum journey charge for the journey being made. After checking the balance, did you touch in again? That might have put you out with just a single zone 1 NR charge which would then mean that touching out at Welling would put you back in with the full maximum journey charge.

According to what I wrote to them and what I remember, I actually check my balance BEFORE touching in at Waterloo East station and so that is why it sounds strange to me.

 

[causton]

From reading about other threads about the barrier gate under National Rail, shouldn't it be at least be manned by a staff at the station (which there isn't one at that time) since the gate is open. (or could it be described at attended because there is CCTV on site?) Moreover, the message shown on the barrier is unclear as it only says "error", which does not include a message or whatsoever whether if there is a fault of my card or if there is insufficient balance on the card. However, now I understand that I should contact the Help Point then.

There should have been a number next to the Seek assistance wording - if it is 94, 70 or 71 it means the chip in your Oyster card cannot be read. If it is 35 or 36 you have not got enough money on your card.

Obviously a barrier staff member would know this, and if the barrier was in operation (i.e. the gates would not open until you touched your card) then there would have to be staff, or monitored by CCTV, usually by a little unit that you speak/show your ticket to if you cannot get through the barrier)

One question though, if it is due to the reason that I have little time, because of the train will be arriving in few minutes, and if I do happen to deal with the card at the Help Point I will miss the train, should I catch the train (as the next train will only come 30 mins later) or should I hop on the train and hopefully deal with it at London Victoria station?

Sort it out before getting on the train. As you could buy a ticket at the station (a paper one from the ticket machine, or top up your Oyster at the machine) you would be charged a penalty fare.

Since it is a National Rail service, what defines should I be charged the penalty fare or charged the fare that I should pay for the trip? Because according to the National Rail Conditions of Carriage, it seems to be unclear about which fare should I be charged.

If you had opportunity to buy before boarding (which you did, as above, there was a ticket machine which sold the ticket you required) a penalty fare. If there was no ticket office, machine, or other method of buying a ticket it would be the normal fare that would be charged.