What is the best EMU in Britain?

[D365]

Could someone enlighten me as to why 365s are "so much better" than anything else? They seem pretty average to me.

They are godly, end of. Needs no justification or scale.

In all seriousness, they are pretty decent, and FCC should be taking better care...

 

[tbtc]

How we could get to three and a half pages in before anyone mentioned the 333s I cannot understand. It must be that others have not sampled them. Fast, smooth, quiet, comfortable, very good looking, well suited to their job.

It depends on what people are looking for, but 333s have:

• 3+2 seats
• Only one toilet per four coach train
• No corridor connection (not a problem on their current use, but would limit their ability to work elsewhere)

...so I don't think they'd be raved about much if they operated around Glasgow or London (where plenty of other EMU classes run).

However because 333s are the only modern trains that Northern have, they seem to have much more love/respect than I think they'd get elsewhere - we are all so grateful for the crumbs that we get!

 

[Robinson]

From what's in service today, I'd go with a 320, 375 or 390 depending on how long the journey was. Although the 320 is partly because I grew up with them in Helensburgh...

I wish I could have got a few more rides on the 303s though; I managed to try them a couple of times before we moved abroad and by the time we came back they had long since disappeared...

 

[TGV]

They are godly, end of. Needs no justification or scale.

Yeah. No metrics needed. We're just right.

OK, being semi-serious for a moment - they are comfortable, have bright and airy interiors and perform well. They are way better than an equivalent SNCF unit (particularly of the same vintage!) and considering we have a bigger loading gauge to start with, I think that what's been done with the 365s is excellent. Can't comment on their maintenance, but if First have not looked after them then one can't blame that on the unit.

 

[Lrd]

444. No explanation needed.

 

[jopsuk]

The 365s are getting this love because they are the right stock on the right line. They're fact accelerating with a decent top speed, making them highly suitable to sprinting along the southern East Coast Main Line. The seats are decent (your mileage may vary) with reasonable leg room in the "airline" seats and a ratio of airline to "bays" (they only have mini-tables) that seems to strike a good balance. The cabin feels roomy with decent windows. They've even got decent luggage racks in several of the carriage ends. Not too much space is taken up by the loos. The first class accommodation is not overly generous.

They do lack aircon, which they really could do with. Inter-unit gangways could possibly help with spreading the load, but cabs without them do make for a more pleasant working environment for the drivers and to be honest, the services either seem to be fairly quiet or rammed to the rafters throughout

 

[Manchester77]

I'd have to go for a 390.

I agree. Yeah I'd much rather have an 86/87 hauling mark 2/3 coaches but we have to step into a modern age. They may not have a window at every seat but with a few modifications (toilets etc. they could become an even better train)
Or a 455, refurbished brilliantly by SWT as previously mentioned

 

[Oswyntail]

It depends on what people are looking for, but 333s have:

• 3+2 seats
• Only one toilet per four coach train
• No corridor connection (not a problem on their current use, but would limit their ability to work elsewhere)

...so I don't think they'd be raved about much if they operated around Glasgow or London (where plenty of other EMU classes run).
...

OK, but, as with most such threads, we are not comparing like with like. However, if we are looking at London and Glasgow, I would rank them above any of the directly equivalent outer-suburban units on offer (Electrostars, 450s, 334s, 350s, plus the earlier classes - I have no experience of the 380s.) for the reasons I gave. So I think they would be raved about.

 

[Ivo]

I would be interested in knowing what metrics we're using to determine the best EMU? It all seems rather arbitrary to me so far!

As far as I can tell, it;s which ones we hate the least as determined by our preexisting prejudices and experiences on them as opposed to any objective qualities.

But isn't that always the way with these things? It's all about personal preference. Granted, there are some units that are loathed almost universally, and some that are loved almost universally, but for the most part there is no real mileage in terms of any physical criteria as to what is good and what is not. I just find it amusing that I like the units most hate and hate the units most like (note my new sig )...

 

[tbtc]

OK, but, as with most such threads, we are not comparing like with like. However, if we are looking at London and Glasgow, I would rank them above any of the directly equivalent outer-suburban units on offer (Electrostars, 450s, 334s, 350s, plus the earlier classes - I have no experience of the 380s.) for the reasons I gave. So I think they would be raved about.

The 333s are fine at what they do, no doubt, but when you said that you were surprised that nobody had mentioned them I was explaining that they are fairly unremarkable trains to be mentioned in a thread about the "best" EMUs.

 

[Passenger John]

So lucky to live near Cambridge, travel a lot all over England but so nice to finish a trip on a 365. Been on one today to Kings Lynn and back, smooth and quick and comfortable as ever.

 

[wolfman]

the old SR sub stock with the pure westinghouse brake absolute heart stoppers especially when running onto the blocks.

 

[RobShipway]

I have no experience of the 379 or 380, but for it is as follows:

Long Distance: 377
Medium: 450
Local: 378
Special merit: 442

 

[Ivo]

Long Distance: 377
Medium: 450
Local: 378
Special merit: 442

Why should the 377 be long-distance if the 450 - effectively a DC 350, which operates longer distance routes than the 377 - is not?

 

[RobShipway]

Why should the 377 be long-distance if the 450 - effectively a DC 350, which operates longer distance routes than the 377 - is not?

Because any of the 377 I have travelled in have been 2+2 seating which is better for longer distance than the 3+2 seating that I have been in for either 350 or 450 trains.

 

[tbtc]

Because any of the 377 I have travelled in have been 2+2 seating which is better for longer distance than the 3+2 seating that I have been in for either 350 or 450 trains.

350/1s are 2+2.

350/3s will be once built.

Only the /2s have 3+2 seating.

 

[RobShipway]

350/1s are 2+2.

350/3s will be once built.

Only the /2s have 3+2 seating.

It may have been a 350/2 that I travelled on, but I found it more uncomfortable than travelling from Euston to Milton Keynes, than I did on either travelling on a class 377 from Newhaven to Clapham Juction or using the Heathrown Connect 360s from London Paddington to Heathrow.

I think that LM needs gto have the seating on the 350/2's to be 2+2 in my mind for a better experience and maybe make them 5 car as per the 360/2's.

 

[MidnightFlyer]

Because any of the 377 I have travelled in have been 2+2 seating which is better for longer distance than the 3+2 seating that I have been in for either 350 or 450 trains.

Though one sub-class of 377 has 3+2 seating throughout, and most of the sub-classes have 3+2 seating in the centre coaches.

Only 350/2s have 3+2, the slightly older 350/1s are 2+2 throughout.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

I think that LM needs gto have the seating on the 350/2's to be 2+2 in my mind for a better experience and maybe make them 5 car as per the 360/2's.

I believe the 3+2 seating was at the DfT's specification, LM wanted 2+2 IIRC.

 

[yorksrob]

[*]3+2 seats
[*]Only one toilet per four coach train
[*]No corridor connection (not a problem on their current use, but would limit their ability to work elsewhere)
[/LIST]

...so I don't think they'd be raved about much if they operated around Glasgow or London (where plenty of other EMU classes run).

However because 333s are the only modern trains that Northern have, they seem to have much more love/respect than I think they'd get elsewhere - we are all so grateful for the crumbs that we get!

I think that's an uncharitable view though.

The 1 toilet for four carriages is a definate minus.

Other than that though, the 3+3 seats are only facing, so you can at least get into them.

No corridoor - but then again that just seems to be a modern fad. Inter-unit corridoors seem to be going out of fashion.

They are actually good - compared to the 455's (which, lest we forget have no loo's) and they hold their own alongside the networkers.

 

[tbtc]

I think that's an uncharitable view though.

The 1 toilet for four carriages is a definate minus.

Other than that though, the 3+3 seats are only facing, so you can at least get into them.

No corridoor - but then again that just seems to be a modern fad. Inter-unit corridoors seem to be going out of fashion.

They are actually good - compared to the 455's (which, lest we forget have no loo's) and they hold their own alongside the networkers.

...all reasons why they are adequate EMUs (like 357s and other unremarkable trains). But not justification for your surprise at them not being listed as one of the best.

They just stand out because we've had no other "local" trains since privatisation at Northern Spirit/ ATN/ Northern.

 

[yorksrob]

...all reasons why they are adequate EMUs (like 357s and other unremarkable trains). But not justification for your surprise at them not being listed as one of the best.

They just stand out because we've had no other "local" trains since privatisation at Northern Spirit/ ATN/ Northern.

Perhaps it just suggests that most recent local trains have not been particularly inspiring - Unless you can think of any that are better . Or that local trains generally aren't that exciting anyway (actually that can't be true - EPB's).

I have to say though, 444's seem really good to me.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

Perhaps it just suggests that most recent local trains have not been particularly inspiring - Unless you can think of any that are better . Or that local trains generally aren't that exciting anyway (actually that can't be true - EPB's).

I have to say though, 444's seem really good to me.

Or should I say 333's (if they gave them proper designations with letters I wouldn't be so mistaken when I'd had a few).

That said 444's are also good.

 

[Class86Fan]

357 for me.

 

[jopsuk]

No corridoor - but then again that just seems to be a modern fad. Inter-unit corridoors seem to be going out of fashion.

eh? There's plenty of modern stock with corridor connectors, just as there's 50s/60s/70s/80s/early 90s classes without. There's definitely no trend. Plus, ask drivers what they think of them!

 

[yorksrob]

Plus, ask drivers what they think of them!

I can't think of many classes since the Southern Region Electrostars that have inter-unit corridoor connections. None of the post privatisation units up here seem to have them.

As to what drivers think of them, maybe that's why they're going out of fashion.

 

[AndyLandy]

I'll be throwing my support behind the 442s. Loved the old 5WES units that used to run between Southampton and London. In fairness, the 444s that replaced them are quite pleasant, but not quite as awesome as the 442s were!

Oh, and a nod to the Pendolinos. I'm sorry, but I happen to quite like them. WCML journey times are fantastic, and you at least get food and drink on them!

 

[D365]

I can't think of many classes since the Southern Region Electrostars that have inter-unit corridoor connections. None of the post privatisation units up here seem to have them.

As to what drivers think of them, maybe that's why they're going out of fashion.

380s and LM 172s have inter-unit gangways. Thameslink/Crossrail NXEMUs don't need them as units won't be coupled in normal service, but there isn't a particular trend with them, it seems.

 

[bronzeonion]

Local: Class 378
Medium/long: Class 375/3 /6 /7 /8

An 'Electrostar Express' should have been produced to rival the 444. End doorways and 2+2 tables with the comfy 375 seats (not the /9's).

 

[transmanche]

Another vote for the 365 from me. Good seats, good view and they look nice.

Second place for the 444. If only there was an AC version...

Third is the 378, perfectly suited for the services it operates.

Honourable mention to SWT's refurbished 455s - such a *huge* improvement on the original layout.

 

[junglejames]

Overall, the 365. Its everything you need from a unit, and nothing more. Comfortable. Spacious. Well built, with an interior that doesnt look cheap. A smart, pleasant interior. Smooth riding, and quiet. Acceleration that is just right. reliable. Good looking. Plus to give them that bit of character, they have Ivo's favourite F1 sound!!
For short to medium distances, then the 465/ 466s. For stop start journeys- 323s (when they are looked after).
The 442s come a close 2nd in the overall result! They probably would have been joint first if Southern hadnt killed the interiors!
When the enthusiast in me is talking- Any Southern slammer, especially the CIGs, or the 319s.
Plus, just so i dont get accused of ignoring post privatisation units. That award goes to the 334s. Unfortunately im not a fan of any seat in a Siemens unit, although the 380s come closest to touching the 334s.

 

[Bevan Price]

All time (past & present)
Long distance services: SR 4-COR units. Heavy, ponderous units, but spacious comfortable seats, all aligned perfectly with windows. Class 309 comes second.

Suburban services: Difficult to choose between 503 and 506 classes. Top marks for most seats aligned with windows.

Current stock.

Not travelled on 395, so current favourite is 350/1, followed by 333.
Externally, 390 is impressive, but let down by cramped, claustrophobic interior and poor seating layout relative to windows.