Thameslink Rolling Stock Contract

[Wolfie]

According to the Evening Standard the Thameslink rolling stock procurement is 'in meltdown'....

Thoughts?

http://www.standard.co.uk/news/lond...rains-for-thameslink-in-meltdown-8269207.html

My initial thought, given this follows the WCML fiasco, is whether IEP legal action will now follow.....

 

[anthony263]

Yes I would like to see someone take a good hard look at IEP.

I am sure Alstom and Bombardier could come up with something far cheaper and with
23m carriages which wont require all this expensive modifications to infrastructure.

 

[Wolfie]

The Railnews take on this story....even if the contract is not in meltdown it does seem to be in some trouble....

http://www.railnews.co.uk/news/2012/11/01-government-denies-thameslink-deal-is.html

 

[The Ham]

According to the Evening Standard the Thameslink rolling stock procurement is 'in meltdown'....

Thoughts?

http://www.standard.co.uk/news/lond...rains-for-thameslink-in-meltdown-8269207.html

My initial thought, given this follows the WCML fiasco, is whether IEP legal action will now follow.....

Doubts over the Thameslink contract were raised after Chris Williamson, the Derby MP (Labour) and RMT Parliamentary group member, lodged an official question demanding to know when the new Thameslink stock will be delivered.

The source of this story is linked to Labour and the RMT and is the Derby MP (where Bombardier have their plant), I therefore leave it up to the members of the forum to draw their own concussions as if this story has any hint of political motivation.

 

[Wolfie]

Yes I would like to see someone take a good hard look at IEP.

I am sure Alstom and Bombardier could come up with something far cheaper and with
23m carriages which wont require all this expensive modifications to infrastructure.

There was lots of apparently informed speculation that dft had leaned on unsuccessful bidders to withdraw legal action despite the changes in the requirement post selection, not to mention DfT's ignoring of an independent study which suggested many of the assumptions upon which IEP was based were flawed. Whether such leaning can continue to be effective in the post WCML climate where Virgin have proved that legal action works is an interesting question.....

The source of this story is linked to Labour and the RMT and is the Derby MP (where Bombardier have their plant), I therefore leave it up to the members of the forum to draw their own concussions as if this story has any hint of political motivation.

Anything involving politicians, of any party, has political motivation! I note that you carefully ignore the Railnews follow on which suggests there are real problems in financing the Siemens bid (and no, I am NOT saying that Bombardier would find financing any easier to obtain).....

 

[YorkshireBear]

How long till foreign companies stop wanting to do anything in this country?

 

[tbtc]

How long till foreign companies stop wanting to do anything in this country?

Just when the CP5 electrification announcement had me excited/ positive... everything since then has been gloom!

 

[fgwrich]

There was lots of apparently informed speculation that dft had leaned on unsuccessful bidders to withdraw legal action despite the changes in the requirement post selection, not to mention DfT's ignoring of an independent study which suggested many of the assumptions upon which IEP was based were flawed. Whether such leaning can continue to be effective in the post WCML climate where Virgin have proved that legal action works is an interesting question.....



Anything involving politicians, of any party, has political motivation! I note that you carefully ignore the Railnews follow on which suggests there are real problems in financing the Siemens bid (and no, I am NOT saying that Bombardier would find financing any easier to obtain).....

It seems that the main issue is around the sugbject of funding, with Siemens apparently finding it difficult to raise the required funding (ala Dft). Mind you, there's no doubt that dear old Bombardier would have found it equilly as difficult to raise the required finance, as their bid was apparently 8% higher.

Also, posted on 'The Railway Eye' reccently:

This from Siemens...

THAMESLINK ROLLING STOCK PROJECT UPDATE

Steve Scrimshaw, Managing Director of Siemens Rail, today commented:

“The Thameslink negotiations are ongoing and although we are disappointed that they have taken longer than anticipated, we are making good progress and we remain confident that we will achieve closure of this important deal.”

“Our project team is in detailed negotiations with the Department for Transport and in daily contact with them and other key stakeholders.”

“Depending on progress over the next month or so, we hope to achieve commercial close by Christmas with financial closure in the new year".

"We have been forging ahead with the manufacturing planning of our Desiro City train for Thameslink, the second generation commuter train based on the very successful Desiro UK train. We are already well advanced with our plans for the start of vehicle testing at our dedicated test track later this year.”

"Having already invested well over 50 million Euros – at our own risk - in its development, I look forward to the Desiro City train taking pride of place on the UK rail network."

ENDS

And in more good news for the beleaguered DfT, additional delays in ordering the Thameslink fleet will mean newly electrified routes in the North will have to be served by diesel trains.

So even if a review would come up for Thameslink, Siemens are certainly showing that they're comitted to the project and in it for the long hual.

But it does raise one issue though, Why doe's this contract have to be sought under the PFI scheme and not an ordinary ROSCO set up? We'd have probably been close to the first set running by now!

As for IEP. Give that a review!

 

[Class377/5]

The problem is the fact that the press, RMT and the MP have overlooked one fact in this. Bombardier has always been the reserve bidder, nothing has changed on that front.

It's just been designed to take advangte of the current media interest in rail to try and force the Government to accept the Bombardier bid by mis truths and lies rather than valve for money and actually having a better product.

 

[jon0844]

I accept Siemens may have issues with the new trains but I am prepared to take that risk.

Bombardier is guaranteed to have issues and the trains probably won't even be put together properly, so things will fall off or not work and we will have months of grief that will cause knock on effects over a huge area.

I really, really don't want Bombardier making these trains! Why can't the numerous issues with other stock (old and especially new) be taken into account?

 

[Class377/5]

I accept Siemens may have issues with the new trains but I am prepared to take that risk.

Bombardier is guaranteed to have issues and the trains probably won't even be put together properly, so things will fall off or not work and we will have months of grief that will cause knock on effects over a huge area.

I really, really don't want Bombardier making these trains! Why can't the numerous issues with other stock (old and especially new) be taken into account?

IE fact 37 of the 58 new S8 Stock for the Metropolitan Line are having to go back to Derby for works when they are only a couple years old. Ditto the 377/5's. Twice.

 

[Wath Yard]

Yes I would like to see someone take a good hard look at IEP.

I am sure Alstom and Bombardier could come up with something far cheaper and with
23m carriages which wont require all this expensive modifications to infrastructure.

Alstom weren't an unsuccesful bidder. They were shotlisted, declined to bid and pulled out.

The problem is the fact that the press, RMT and the MP have overlooked one fact in this. Bombardier has always been the reserve bidder, nothing has changed on that front.

It's just been designed to take advangte of the current media interest in rail to try and force the Government to accept the Bombardier bid by mis truths and lies rather than valve for money and actually having a better product.

Mistruths and lies?

So the truth is all is going to plan and the first Class 700s will be delivered shortly?

Strange how whenever a true story regarding Siemens's or Alstom's shorcomings comes to light the first thing many do is start slating Bombardier. Wake up and smell the coffee, as they say.

 

[jon0844]

I am happy to slate them all the time. Their poor workmanship gives me numerous reasons.

Every time I question whether I'm going over the top, I hear more things that makes me relax!

 

[RobShipway]

This is going to seem like a strange suggestion, but could it be arranged for Siemens to work with Bombardier not only in getting the finance, but with maybe helping to build the trains as I think that way everyone will be happy, won't they?

 

[ainsworth74]

but could it be arranged for Siemens to work with Bombardier not only in getting the finance, but with maybe helping to build the trains as I think that way everyone will be happy, won't they?

Only if it made sense for Siemens to do so. Seeing as they're quite happy building them in their own factory I'm not sure why they'd want to work with Bombardier (and again why do people assume that being build by Bombardier means being built in Derby?). Also as far as I'm aware Bombardier and Siemens have nothing to do with each other when it comes finance, what with Bombardier not being a bank, how would they finance the rolling stock?

 

[Class377/5]

Mistruths and lies?

So the truth is all is going to plan and the first Class 700s will be delivered shortly?

Strange how whenever a true story regarding Siemens's or Alstom's shorcomings comes to light the first thing many do is start slating Bombardier. Wake up and smell the coffee, as they say.

Yes, lies and mistrusts and if you've followed the story like some of us then you'd know the RMT is peddling lies over the contract to try and force the decision made.

Just because the order is delayed its not to do with something with Siemens. As you have no idea what's going on I wouldn't expect you to understand that. I'm slating the fact that Bombardier have tried to manipulate the public into forcing the contract to be withdrawn by citing job loses and then allowed thoses figures to be twisted and mislead the general product.

As someone working with Bombardier products every day I know what I'd rather be working with.

You say a story over Siemens shortcoming coming to light. Please state the shortcomings in this area because I think you'd find it applies to ALL train builders because of the way this was set up. The world wide financial situation is not a Siemens shortcoming as they arent arranging the finance themselves.

Fact is the story in the OP is nothing but more RMT hyping things up when it's confirmed that the process is continuing since it was announced Siemens won. The fact is Bombardier have always been in reserve and this whole situation is developing by Bombardier allowing local MP and RMT to manipulate the public by lying o them. The whole Siemens getting Thameslink deal has cost Bombardier to sack 1,300 people despite Bombardier telling a minster in writing its actually 300. If Bombardier was an ethical company playing fair they would have put out a press release stating the facts but instead choose allow others to do thier irty work.

It's this fact that really winds me up because the media has fell for it hook line and sinker and allowed this debate over the award to be tainted by nationalism and racism with an unhealthy mix of lies nd blind eyes turned to inconvenience facts. That is Bombardiers failing and I'd rather see them be punished for this.

What's tragic is the poor workers are prawns in this game which is often over looked. They need the help but giving into the RMT demands will only send a message to Bombardier that manipulation works and keep doing and watch the profits roll in as calls will them be you gave Thameslink to Derby for jobs so all other orders should follow suit. Not to mention just giving Bombardier the deal is illegal.

Now perhaps you like some coffee?