The Electoral Roll and Identity Checks

[wintonian]

[Mod Note - Split from this thread.]

As an RPI myself I will explain, we are required to ask for their name and address, in order for us to get police involved etc then we have to disprove what is being said, we will ring up RPSS to check the name and address on via the electoral role, if someone gives someone elses name and address then this will obviously check out, the TOC have then made a reasonable effort to verify the details. As for writing a description, it depends on the TOC, some TOC's have a section on the rear of one of the carbon copies for a breif description in tick box form, some don't.

However someone under the age of 16 will not be on the electoral roll and those that are may have moved since the annual canvas, so rather unreliable IMO.

 

[DarloRich]

How do they confirm your address if you are not on the electoral role or have never done anything wrong. I am on the roll but many of my friends simply dont bother. Just a thought rolling about in my brain.

 

[cuccir]

I am on the roll but many of my friends simply dont bother.

It is illegal to do that. I'm not sure if they ever prosecute for it, but by law you have to give (accurate) information to go on the electoral register.

 

[Darandio]

It is illegal to do that. I'm not sure if they ever prosecute for it, but by law you have to give (accurate) information to go on the electoral register.

Maybe by do not bother, he means they opt out, which is perfectly legal.

 

[DarloRich]

It is illegal to do that. I'm not sure if they ever prosecute for it, but by law you have to give (accurate) information to go on the electoral register.

i realise that but many of my friends simply arent bothered about voting or politics (it is all the same they say!) so never respond to the call for registration.

 

[snail]

i realise that but many of my friends simply arent bothered about voting or politics (it is all the same they say!) so never respond to the call for registration.

Good luck to them if they ever try applying for a job or credit of any kind! I almost lost a job once because I had ticked the 'no publicity' box on the registration form and didn't show up in the HR department's electoral roll search.

http://www.electoralcommission.org.uk/faq/voting-and-registration/why-cant-i-get-credit

 

[island]

How do they confirm your address if you are not on the electoral role or have never done anything wrong. I am on the roll but many of my friends simply dont bother. Just a thought rolling about in my brain.

It is an offence not to register on the electoral roll.

Maybe by do not bother, he means they opt out, which is perfectly legal.

Yes, but certain agencies (including credit reference agencies, who are used for these verifications) have access to the full roll with the opt-outs included.

The issue here is that RPIs do not have a legal entitlement to require the production of identification. (Note that I think this not something that should be changed, for other reasons.)

 

[Swirlz]

The issue here is that RPIs do not have a legal entitlement to require the production of identification. (Note that I think this not something that should be changed, for other reasons.)

Rail staff may have a very limited power under the Railways (Safety Case) Regulations 2000 if requesting ID for certain person(s) is part of internal security standards/RAs which they are obliged to create and abide by.

Couldn't be used for fare evasion though IMO.

Not too sure though, much more advanced level of law than I am comfortable with.

Need a rail law expert really :/

 

[WelshBluebird]

Off topic I know, but just a couple of points on the electoral roll stuff.

First of all, any company who would fire you for not being on the edited register is simply not worth working for (and the HR staff simply should not be in that job).

Secondly, it is an offence to not give your details. But it is not an offence to not keep details up to date. So say if you move house just after the annual registration, then it is easily possible that you may not be on the register at the new address for a while.

Finally, don't forget people like students (or indeed those who may spread their time between two "homes"). Where they spend most of their time (and thus may give as their address) may not be their home as indicated on the electoral roll.

 

[snail]

any company who would fire you for not being on the edited register is simply not worth working for (and the HR staff simply should not be in that job)

This was a job application for a financial services company. They needed to verify that my address was correct as part of their anti-fraud procedures and used an electoral roll check as one of their tools. Once I had pointed out I was on the limited register it was fine and another form of verification was used.

 

[6Gman]

Yes, but certain agencies (including credit reference agencies, who are used for these verifications) have access to the full roll with the opt-outs included.

I don't think this statement is correct. Further, I believe some people are allowed to register by broad locality rather than a specific address (e.g. victims of domestic abuse). So while use of the Electoral Roll may be of some use, it is certainly not definitive.

 

[island]

I am afraid it is you that is incorrect on this occasion. See http://www.electoralcommission.org.uk/faq/voting-and-registration/what-is-the-electoral-register, where it points out that the full register is used for checking applications for credit.
No idea about victims of domestic abuse, but that's a corner case anyhow.

 

[cuccir]

We're going quickly off topic: there's the edited register and the electoral register. You can opt out of the edited version, but it's a legal obligation to sign-up to the full version.

 

[wintonian]

I am afraid it is you that is incorrect on this occasion. See http://www.electoralcommission.org.uk/faq/voting-and-registration/what-is-the-electoral-register, where it points out that the full register is used for checking applications for credit.
No idea about victims of domestic abuse, but that's a corner case anyhow.

Quite true and not being on it is one of the more common reasons for failing to pass credit scoring I believe.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

I don't think this statement is correct. Further, I believe some people are allowed to register by broad locality rather than a specific address (e.g. victims of domestic abuse). So while use of the Electoral Roll may be of some use, it is certainly not definitive.

Such people (which also includes serving police constables and the like) do in-fact have to register at an address, however there address is not included on the copies of marked registers and their number is accompanied by the letter 'A' to point out that they are an anonymous voter.

 

[WillPS]

When I was UPFN'd, I'd just moved to my present address and so I hadn't updated the electoral roll/it hadn't updated to reflect my residence. No effort was made to check my previous address or anything - but I guess I was upfront that I had just moved and could give a previous address if needed.

At the time it rather annoyed me that they were happy to make a 5 minute phone call to check my identity but wouldn't make a call to check my booking/corroborate my story.

 

[RPI]

Sorry I've missed most of this thread, to answer the question about under 17's (generally you are on the electoral roll at 17), it is quite easy to verify this by taking the parents name, which has to be entered onto the PFN if the offender is under 18, asking to see proof of name such as a bank card is a start, so, if the parents are registered then you have made a reasonable attempt to verify the details. Now if they say they have lived there for 5 years but there is a different name registered then I take that as disproving what they have told me and get BTP involved as based on the information available it is reasonable to think that the details are false. It's all about that magic word "reasonable" which is a word that no one seems to be able to define!

 

[Mojo]

What happens if the person is under 18 but does not live with their parents?

 

[6Gman]

I am afraid it is you that is incorrect on this occasion. See http://www.electoralcommission.org.uk/faq/voting-and-registration/what-is-the-electoral-register, where it points out that the full register is used for checking applications for credit.
No idea about victims of domestic abuse, but that's a corner case anyhow.

I am grateful for the correction (and link) and frankly shocked!

 

[wintonian]

What happens if the person is under 18 but does not live with their parents?

The form asks for the name and DOB of all those living at the property who are 16/ 17. IIRC it used to those that would turn 18 before the next canvas.

If you register outside of the canvas then its a bit like individual registration i.e. 1 form per person.

 

[Surreytraveller]

Although the law requires you to be on the electoral roll, I do not believe the law requires any particular person or organisation to actually prosecute you if you refuse to put yourself on it...

 

[RJ]

Need a rail law expert really :/

You'll find plenty on here. Awareness of Byelaw 18 and the RoRA 1889 Section 5 and people believe they can post as if they are qualified to be judge, jury and executioner

 

[rob.rjt]

At risk of sending this thread further off topic than before, I felt I should confirm/deny some comments about uses of the electoral register...

1) It is compulsory to register

Yes and no. The only requirement is to provide an Electoral Registration Officer with the information required by that officer to compile the electoral registers (http://www.legislation.gov.uk/uksi/2001/341/part/III/crossheading/information-about-electors/made). The ERO is under an obligation to require the provision of this information once per year. You are not required to re-register if you move house during the year.

2) Comments about uses of the register

The use of the full register is strictly controlled. There are 20 regulations regarding the use of the register. The main regulation boils down to 'if you receive the register, you can only use it for the purpose it was supplied for'. (http://www.legislation.gov.uk/uksi/2002/1871/regulation/15/made)

A credit reference agency may use the full register only for:

a)vetting applications for credit or applications that can result in the giving of credit or the giving of any guarantee, indemnity or assurance in relation to the giving of credit; [i.e. credit checking]
b) meeting any obligations contained in the Money Laundering Regulations 1993, the Money Laundering Regulations 2001 or any rules made pursuant to section 146 of the Financial Services and Markets Act 2000; and [i.e stopping Money Laundering]
c) statistical analysis of credit risk assessment in a case where no person whose details are included in the full register is referred to by name or necessary implication. [i.e. more about credit cheking]

The BTP may obtain the full register for the purposes of "prevention and detection of crime and the enforcement of the criminal law".

There are no such restrictions on the edited register. I would, therefore, suspect that any organisation that RPIs can contact has only the edited register, so about 50% of the entire registered electorate, so about 46% of all registered people. Of course, not everyone is entitled to register in the first place.

 

[richw]

In a previous employment it meant spending 5-6 nights a week in a hotel, for that reason I didnt bother having my own house, and my 1-2 nights I wasnt in a hotel for work, I stayed at friends, family or girls houses or paid a hotel out of my own pocket. During the 2 years in this position I was not registered on electoral register, and probably was legally of no fixed abode. I used gran's address for bank statements and correspondence to be sent to. If I provided my name and correspondence address as above It would of come up not registered at address and an elderly woman who had been at the address on her own for 20 years, with a different surname. I imagine I would of had problems if I was address checked by a RPI.

 

[maniacmartin]

Very enlightening richw. I don't think I could live that way as I like to have my own space to keep my many possessions. One of my colleagues lives on a houseboat which he moves every 2 weeks to avoid paying mooring fees or council tax. He too is not on the electoral roll, and all his bank statements go to a friends address.

 

[richw]

I'd lived with parents prior to that employment, and my possessions consisted of a mobile phone, books and a couple of cases of clothes. I had a company car, company paid diesel, £20 a day meal allowance and hotels were paid for on expenses. I calculated I was spending less than £100 a month of my salary. It wasn't a job I enjoyed, and took a substantial pay cut to be in a one location office job when my girlfriend (now wife) fell pregnant, I do however have a healthy savings account.

Sent from my HTC Sensation Z710e using Tapatalk 2

 

[snail]

Response from Nick Clegg on electoral reform in 2011:

We need to establish some facts about what is and what is not changing in electoral registration. At present, it is not an offence not to register to vote, and that will not change. It is an offence not to provide information when requested to give it, and that will not change either. The civic duty to register to vote, which everybody recognises, remains, and that will not change. There are suggestions, including from the Select Committee on Political and Constitutional Reform, to create a new offence—one that does not currently exist—of failing to apply to register to vote. Of course the Government will listen to that, but I would warn against thinking that the only solution is criminalising people, because only 144 people were prosecuted in the last year under the present offences.
[...]
I do not think that I can do any better than to quote the Electoral Commission, which said: “We would not want to see a move away from the current approach—where electoral registration, though not compulsory, is regarded as an important civic duty”.

http://www.publications.parliament.uk/pa/cm201011/cmhansrd/cm111115/debtext/111115-0001.htm

 

[Mojo]

The form asks for the name and DOB of all those living at the property who are 16/ 17. IIRC it used to those that would turn 18 before the next canvas.

If you register outside of the canvas then its a bit like individual registration i.e. 1 form per person.

My comment was related to the post above mine by RPI who stated that ''the parents name...has to be entered onto the PFN if the offender is under 18.'' I am genuinely interested, as this is somewhat relevant to me, what would happen if an under 18 didn't live with his parents and how the PFN would be completed.

 

[D2022]

Sorry I've missed most of this thread, to answer the question about under 17's (generally you are on the electoral roll at 17), it is quite easy to verify this by taking the parents name, which has to be entered onto the PFN if the offender is under 18, asking to see proof of name such as a bank card is a start, so, if the parents are registered then you have made a reasonable attempt to verify the details. Now if they say they have lived there for 5 years but there is a different name registered then I take that as disproving what they have told me and get BTP involved as based on the information available it is reasonable to think that the details are false. It's all about that magic word "reasonable" which is a word that no one seems to be able to define!

What happens if your surname is different to that of your parents, in my case I am the only person to still have my name other than my family up in Scotland. So if I give my surname and my parents it would be invalid surely? I'm also not on the electoral role, and as far then saying it's illegal, bite me

 

[Stigy]

In a previous employment it meant spending 5-6 nights a week in a hotel, for that reason I didnt bother having my own house, and my 1-2 nights I wasnt in a hotel for work, I stayed at friends, family or girls houses or paid a hotel out of my own pocket. During the 2 years in this position I was not registered on electoral register, and probably was legally of no fixed abode. I used gran's address for bank statements and correspondence to be sent to. If I provided my name and correspondence address as above It would of come up not registered at address and an elderly woman who had been at the address on her own for 20 years, with a different surname. I imagine I would of had problems if I was address checked by a RPI.

Depends on the RPI I guess. I'm not an RPI, although I do report offenders in the same way. I often have people tell me they're of no fixed abode. That being the case, I inform them that I'll have to have the Police attend and they may be arrested and have to attend court the following day...It's amazing how this often creates an address. I'm quite happy to take a C/O address if it's one I can verify to an extent.

If somebody gives an address in existance, but without registration, or having people there, just not this person, I'd tend to take it at face value, unless it's been logged as being false, or "not known at this address" in the past. The BTP will seldom attend otherwise and it's really a lot of hassle for nothing.