Trainee Jobs and Franchises

[bob hope]

Hi all,

Having spent the last year or so applying for trainee Driver jobs its seems fairly clear that only some of the TOC's take on trainees, whilst alot of the others never seem to and are content to "poach" drivers from the TOC's that do. Or do those that never advertise for trainees just take on internal staff?

This made me think of a few things that I wondered if any one had any thoughts/answers on:

1, Why don't the Deptartment for Transport make it a condition of new franchises that a certain ammount of trainees must be taken on each year to cover for natural wastage (retirements, illness, etc etc)?

2, Do any of the TOC's that do take on trainees ever write it into the contracts that the newly qualified driver must remain with that TOC for a certain ammount of time before they are able to leave?

3, Also - does any one have any idea of the ammount of trainees that are taken on across the whole country per year? I wondered how this compared to the forecasted natural wastage that occurs annually.

4, Can any one see a point where there is a shortage of qualified drivers? (apart from at London Midland obviously!)

Any replies gratefully received - even the silly ones!

 

[jscho84233]

I can only answer question 2 - I've just signed a contract for FGW. I also had to sign an additional "Agreement for Funding of a Train Driver Vocational Training Programme". One of the conditions in that states that should I leave FGW within 2 years after qualifying I would have to repay some or all of the training costs, on a sliding scale, depending on how much of the 2 year period is left, which amounts to nearly £9K!

 

[bob hope]

Thought there must be some kind of clause - 2 years doesn't seem too bad really. Probabbly works out to about 3 years including the training and notice period I guess.

So would that mean if you left as soon as qualified you'd pay 9K and then less as time goes on - or 9K is the minimum?


Not long to go now jscho! I'm still hoping and praying to see you there myself someday - still awaiting results from FGW. Hope it all works out for you.

 

[jscho84233]

Basically after qualification the amount to repay is the percentage of the 2 year period which remains at the date of leaving, but not more than £5.5k. So if leaving straight after qualification, you would repay £5.5K, but if you leave after a year and a half, you would repay £1,375. (25%, because there is 25% of the 2 year period left to run.)

Thanks bud, keep your chin up, hopefully you will hear something soon! I know of a few other people in exactly the same position as you.

 

[TheVicLine]

Surely it can one be a good thing that TOC's look to promote from within the company before assessing external applicants.

 

[bob hope]

Surely it can one be a good thing that TOC's look to promote from within the company before assessing external applicants.

Absolutely - good for morale and all that. But not mine!!

So do some TOC's (such as Chiltern for example) only train up internal applicants? Or do they only ever take on qualified drivers? Its just that I've not seen them advertise...( And I check almost religiously!)

 

[Vicpaul]

Its not necessarily promotional as you have to be a qualified driver. LM @ bletchley would be spot on for me as im a thirty second walk from the station.

A the second post states, there is a roling scale that comes is once you get your key. Im with southern and if im not mistaken if I up and leave after a year i pay back 12k which gradually reduces to 0 on completion of my second year.

 

[W230]

1, Why don't the Deptartment for Transport make it a condition of new franchises that a certain ammount of trainees must be taken on each year to cover for natural wastage (retirements, illness, etc etc)?

I think each TOC may have conditions to have to have a certain number of drivers in place by the time they hand the franchise over. The impression I get from drivers at FCC seems to be that they have had a shortage of drivers for a long time but alot of drivers work their rest days. As the franchise is up next year - suddenly a rush to take on lots of new drivers (though the Thameslink project is obviously meaning that FCC will end up needing plenty more too).

2, Do any of the TOC's that do take on trainees ever write it into the contracts that the newly qualified driver must remain with that TOC for a certain ammount of time before they are able to leave?

My TOC don't have this clause, though we were told when we started that they don't lose many drivers. No idea if that's true yet (not been here long enough). I'd heard that other TOC's do this but the post above about FGW is the first one i'd heard of actually doing it.

4, Can any one see a point where there is a shortage of qualified drivers? (apart from at London Midland obviously!)

I would think you're always going to get the most vacancies at the larger suburban depotsTOCs. From this I would think FCC, SWT, Southern, FGW and LM are a good bet. Northern have a few vacancies but it really seems like a 'trickle' of new recruits with them. I was living oop north prior to starting with as a trainee driver down south. As it happended I was also successful with Northern but by the time they had finally got back to me to offer me a job (I went into the mysterious talent pool for two months) i'd already signed a contract witha southern TOC. I would definanitely think there is much more competition for jobs up north though.

 

[bob hope]

Seems fair enough that you pay back your training TOC - I wonder how many they lose within the first year or so after the pay back clause has elasped?

So following W320 point regarding larger depots having the most vacancies - do people believe its "easier" to get a trainee place the further south you go?

Still no thoughts regarding franchises being forced to train a certain number of drivers per year?

 

[NI 271]

I can only answer question 2 - I've just signed a contract for FGW. I also had to sign an additional "Agreement for Funding of a Train Driver Vocational Training Programme". One of the conditions in that states that should I leave FGW within 2 years after qualifying I would have to repay some or all of the training costs, on a sliding scale, depending on how much of the 2 year period is left, which amounts to nearly £9K!

First also do this on the buses in some areas - I used to work as a driver for them, and although I'd been there a long time before they introduced it, I'm sure drivers were having money deducted weekly for the cost of their training, but if they stayed for 2 years they got it back in one lump (it was £1000 last I remember).

Big difference between the two, we used to get people sent to us from the dole, who had no interest in working but were getting their benefits stopped if they didn't take the job. Many of these had poor attendance records (not caring if they didn't earn much because their benefits were increased the less they earned) and weren't right for the job in any way. That won't ever happen on the trains because everybody even applying absolutely wants the job, but I can still see why TOCs would do it, stops the ones who don't train drivers from poaching ones they've invested time and good money in.

 

[A-driver]

Those clauses about paying back training costs are not worth the paper they are written on. It's completely un-enforceable.

I know one TOC with those clauses in contracts that has lately been loosing loads of new drivers and they tried threatening enforcing that clause but it came to nothing as there are far too many legal loopholes and won't stand up in court.

 

[notadriver]

Why does it work on the buses? I've heard of debt collecting companies knocking on drivers doors for owed money.

 

[Pumbaa]

Those clauses about paying back training costs are not worth the paper they are written on. It's completely un-enforceable.

I know one TOC with those clauses in contracts that has lately been loosing loads of new drivers and they tried threatening enforcing that clause but it came to nothing as there are far too many legal loopholes and won't stand up in court.

+1 - they can wibble about it all they like, but due to 'freedom of choice of work' it's worth nil. One company looked seriously at persuing employees a few years ago apparently, sought legal advice and backed down. Other TOCs soon got the message.

So we now have a situation where lower salaried TOCs are responsible for recruiting new drivers and training them up, then higher salaried TOCs can poach. It's not a sustainable system.

2 suggestions are currently floating through the system;

1) enforce a minimum recruitment level that all TOCs must bring in off the street, including driver training and so spread the costs evenly across the industry
2) create a multi-TOC funded driver training 'school' that everyone goes through, allocate % to each TOC and spread the cost that way.

Option 2 is on the agenda for the RDG when they next meet I think - certainly it's being discussed openly between members as one TOC lurches around cancelling services each day, while another TOC on the same patch is about to go ahead with the productivity deal and create a £25k difference...

 

[MacRae13]

First also do this on the buses in some areas - I used to work as a driver for them, and although I'd been there a long time before they introduced it, I'm sure drivers were having money deducted weekly for the cost of their training, but if they stayed for 2 years they got it back in one lump (it was £1000 last I remember).

I started with First Bus in Glasgow on November 2002. They did this then but stopped it soon after.

 

[bob hope]

These both sound fairly decent ideas to me (although I am currently an outsider).

Standardises the initial training and also spreads the cost around the TOC's - which also in turn may mean less need for trainees to re-locate to get into a company in the first place, and so more likely to remain there for longer. Everyone's a winner......

It would also be nice to see the assessment process standardised, as this seems to be different depending on which TOC you are applying to.

It seems strange to me that TOC's are allowed to pick and choose how they go about this, with some doing all the tests in one day and others spreading them out (to reduce costs I imagine). This must put some candidates at a disadvantage depending on how they cope with the intense pressure enviroment all in one day, compared to those who are kept hanging on between assesments - which is the situation I am currently in.

Personally I'd rather get them over and done with whilst I'm "in the zone".

 

[ainsworth74]

Of course if such a school was set up, you could then go down the 'radical' road of opening it up to members of the public (obviously with no guarantee of a job at the end and with them paying the full costs themselves). Which could have an interesting effect on the pool of qualified drivers available to the industry.

 

[W230]

2) create a multi-TOC funded driver training 'school' that everyone goes through, allocate % to each TOC and spread the cost that way.

Interesting and certainly not a bad idea. But I don't know how easy it would be to implement. With days/weeks away doing front end turns, trying to organise this with the relevant depots and different TOCs could be difficult and that's before you get to the TOC specific traction/routes stuff.

Saying that though, BR must have managed it (i'm assuming) and I can't see why you couldn't have a 'core' training programme of rules before moving to your employing TOC for the local stuff.

 

[bob hope]

Never thought of that W320 - what did BR do back in the day?
Did they have to pass the same assesments then too?

 

[Beveridges]

some TOCs have a 6 month notice period, which is a different way of making it hard for Drivers to leave, instead of enforcing repayment of training costs. If enforcable it would make it impossible to leave, who is going to wait 6 months ?
Now I'm suprised on the Busses that they come knocking on your door for the training course money if you leave too soon as I didn't think the training on those was particularly lengthy or expensive?

 

[NI 271]

some TOCs have a 6 month notice period, which is a different way of making it hard for Drivers to leave, instead of enforcing repayment of training costs. If enforcable it would make it impossible to leave, who is going to wait 6 months ?
Now I'm suprised on the Busses that they come knocking on your door for the training course money if you leave too soon as I didn't think the training on those was particularly lengthy or expensive?

I think in First's case they just got fed up with people getting their PSV licence and buggering straight off to their mate's coach company or the two-bit operators who paid cash in hand to run buses right in front of First's.

 

[Beveridges]

What about people who just left the Busses because they couldn't hack the job (whether its the shifts, the monotony, the general public, the commute, the low pay, or a mixture of these) as opposed to those who leave to join another Bus company. Would they come knocking on their door then??