Longest journey on 'inappropriate' rolling stock

[TEW]

What is nasty is the use of a 165 or 166 (3+2 seats - and 1 toilet if a 165) on the Sunday 14.42 from London to Hereford and the 18.30 return. And unlike those West Country 150s (whether or not there are cheap advances), the odds of some people actually travelling the entire route, for 3hrs 30mins on a Sunday timing, particularly heading back to London, are pretty high.

Weekends in general are pretty bad on the Cotswold Line, most services are 165s or 166s. The journey to Great Malvern is still 2hrs 40mins on what is ultimately a commuter DMU. If the 166s had 2+2 seating, so more like Turbostars than Turbos they wouldn't be bad trains. 2+2 seating would be better for the Reading-Gatwick Airport and London-Bedwyn services as well, it's just the stopping services which are better with the 2+3 seating. At least Turbos have some of the better 2+3 seating, certainly a lot more comfortable and roomy than a 150/1.

 

[RAGNARØKR]

Weekends in general are pretty bad on the Cotswold Line, most services are 165s or 166s. The journey to Great Malvern is still 2hrs 40mins on what is ultimately a commuter DMU. If the 166s had 2+2 seating, so more like Turbostars than Turbos they wouldn't be bad trains. 2+2 seating would be better for the Reading-Gatwick Airport and London-Bedwyn services as well, it's just the stopping services which are better with the 2+3 seating. At least Turbos have some of the better 2+3 seating, certainly a lot more comfortable and roomy than a 150/1.

[URL="hthttp://www.flickr.com/photos/seadipper/47830297/tp://"]Here is a Cotswold line train in 1960[/URL] - 8 mark 1s including a restaurant car with full meal service.

 

[richard1976]

Class 156 on west highland line

 

[HSTEd]

[URL="hthttp://www.flickr.com/photos/seadipper/47830297/tp://"]Here is a Cotswold line train in 1960[/URL] - 8 mark 1s including a restaurant car with full meal service.

What was the journey time then as compared to now? The journey time is probably far too short now to justify a full restaurant car

8 mark 1s is only equivalent to 7 mark 3s in length terms too....

 

[jimm]

This statement is constantly made in relation to end door stock but to what extent is it end doors that are the problem?

I would suggest that it has become an article of faith without direct comparisons ever being made. Mark 3 stock has a narrow (ie short distance from nose to riser) step with has to be negotiated. Both mark 3 and classes 153/156/158 have small vestibule areas with "pinch points" between them and the saloons.

I would also question where the data has been derived from. The original BR sliding door stock eg classes 313 and 455, had 1.2 metre wide doorways with no standback inside the doorway, thus passengers would adopt the "sentinel" position on either side, leaving room for only for boarding and alighting in single file. The Bombardier plug door stock suffers from an awkward entrance step. Later stock, eg classes 376/378 with sliding doors, has good standback space and obstructions to the free movement of people have been reduced, which unfortunately also causes more draughts when the doors are open at stations. Since the trains are used on short distance routes and passengers are wearing their outdoor clothing this is not regarded as objectionable.

For station dwell time, a fleet of slam door trains is unbeatable, with 15 second stops being achievable. But for the system to work passengers had to be more disciplined and there were of course safety issues.

Probably the most useful feature to reduce station dwell times would be a retractable step as shown here.

The doors, steps and vestibules per se are a very minor problem, if they are any problem at all. The problem is people using end doors getting in and out of the passenger saloons along a narrow aisle in single file, especially if they stop at the luggage rack to drop off/pick up that ever more popular bit of commuter kit the Brompton bicycle. I don't need data. I just need to see people trying to get on and off HSTs at Oxford all the time to understand the issue thanks.

For station dwell time, a fleet of slam door trains is unbeatable, with 15 second stops being achievable.

Thus is a joke isn't it? Where and when and with what rolling stock?

Here is a Cotswold line train in 1960 - 8 mark 1s including a restaurant car with full meal service.

Full meal service? I don't think so. Just a buffet service with a limited selection of hot meals on most expresses, with a handful of silver service restaurant trains on the route.

And your point would be what anyway? In among the expresses, there were a number of dmu workings, many using good old Swindon or Gloucester CrossCountry sets, which were far more suitable for the Cotswold Line than Turbos. And the Sunday service in 1965-ish had a grand total of two trains to/from Hereford and two to/from Worcester, serving only the main stations between Worcester and Oxford. Hardly the glory days, I'd suggest.

 

[Rich McLean]

Thus is a joke isn't it? Where and when and with what rolling stock?

If you have even seen a full slammer empty onto a platform at Waterloo before the train as even come to a halt, you would understand why

 

[ainsworth74]

If you have even seen a full slammer empty onto a platform at Waterloo before the train as even come to a halt, you would understand why

They were quick to unload I'll give them that, but fifteen second station calls (as in stop, unload, load, start all in fifteen seconds)?

 

[Eagle]

they were quick to unload i'll give them that, but fifteen second station calls (as in stop, unload, load, run down the platform closing all the doors because the punters left them all open, start all in fifteen seconds)?

ftfy.

 

[Goatboy]

They were quick to unload I'll give them that, but fifteen second station calls (as in stop, unload, load, start all in fifteen seconds)?

I used to go to school on Class 423's which often called for no longer than 15 seconds at stations like Netley, Bursledon, etc.

 

[matchmaker]

Class 156 on west highland line

Sorry, but what utter ballcocks. The ideal unit for the route.

 

[richw]

I definitely have to agree with the FGW 150/1 on the 0600 Penzance to Cardiff and the 1300 Cardiff to Exeter. But then again most people wouldn't do the journey direct (I certainly couldn't for six hours!) as its quicker to get the 0628 Penzance to Glasgow and change at Bristol onto the 1054 to Cardiff (albeit probably more expensive).

Can't remember timings of services but I found on my recent trips to wales that the cheapest routes to cardiff from Cornwall is Cornwall - taunton - bristol parkway - cardiff.



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[wintonian]

Have you ever travelled on a peak HST on the Cotswold Line? They may be quieter the further west you go but "over the top", when you look at the loads nearer to Oxford, you have to be joking. The single line west of Evesham is all 95mph capable - hardly a crawl.

What is nasty is the use of a 165 or 166 (3+2 seats - and 1 toilet if a 165) on the Sunday 14.42 from London to Hereford and the 18.30 return. And unlike those West Country 150s (whether or not there are cheap advances), the odds of some people actually travelling the entire route, for 3hrs 30mins on a Sunday timing, particularly heading back to London, are pretty high.

As for HSTs on Thames Valley services, there is a very simple reason they are used - they can shift a lot of passengers at one go and they are what FGW has to hand. No-one would pretend for a moment they are ideal for the job, with the dwell times that result from end doors, but without them there simply wouldn't be enough peak trains calling at places like Maidenhead to shift the crowds.

Maybe e I've been lucky then and the handful of time I have used the line its been at quieter times.

What's the line speed of the rest of it?

It's just seemed a bit like moving New Street to Rugely Trent Valley or somewhere else out of place.

 

[MidnightFlyer]

From a slightly different prospect, how about 158s (or are they 159s?) on the Lymington services during the week, or the 158s on the hourly 'Romsey 6' services off-peak? Silent from my experience and impressions you get on here from various threads. I know it's not ideal and not entirely logistical, but surely some lines currently stuck with single 153s (like the Cumbrian Coast and bits in Lincolnshire) are more deserving of the 2-car Sprinter than these lines?
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Sorry, but what utter ballcocks. The ideal unit for the route.

Part of me wants 142s on the West Highland line as the views offered by the enormous windows unobstructed by the low-back seats would be truly spectacular, it would give you almost a complete panoroma of the views as opposed to the current limited one offered by 156s. Of course the comfort would be decimated but for me personally the improved views would more than compensate.

 

[matchmaker]

Part of me wants 142s on the West Highland line as the views offered by the enormous windows unobstructed by the low-back seats would be truly spectacular, it would give you almost a complete panoroma of the views as opposed to the current limited one offered by 156s. Of course the comfort would be decimated but for me personally the improved views would more than compensate.

The words you are looking for are "utterly destroyed". Tight curves, mile after mile of jointed track. For nearly four hours

 

[Eagle]

Part of me wants 142s on the West Highland line as the views offered by the enormous windows unobstructed by the low-back seats would be truly spectacular, it would give you almost a complete panoroma of the views as opposed to the current limited one offered by 156s. Of course the comfort would be decimated but for me personally the improved views would more than compensate.

 

[Manchester77]

After transpennine electrification, 185s would be good fr the route, good acceleration, comfortable seats, buffet services etc.
Probably wrong though......

 

[RAGNARØKR]

They were quick to unload I'll give them that, but fifteen second station calls (as in stop, unload, load, start all in fifteen seconds)?

Long ago I read an account of a footplate trip on an I3 steam locomotive on the Brighton line, probably via East Grinstead. This must have been in the early 1950s as they did not last much longer than that. One of the comments was the shortness of the station stops, "up to electric standards - around 15 seconds". People would get off very quickly with ten doors per side, and slam the doors behind them. Someone on the platform would check and give the signal to the guard and then back to the driver. It was a surprisingly smart operation with the slam door trains. Once sliding door trains had been introduced on the Southern people got out of the slam door habits needed to make the system work.

The decision to go for another generation of slam door trains and not sliding door train in the 1950s was a deliberate policy on Southern, and also slam door trains had replaced sliding door trains on the Metropolitan in the 1920s with the introduction of the T-stock, and also on the LMS electric suburban lines around London and Manchester in the inter-war period.

It was not until just before WW2 that sliding door trains were beginning to be seen as advantageous, with the new LMS stock of advanced design for Merseyside and then the LNER designed sliding door trains for the Glossop and Shenfield electrifications which came into service just after nationalisation. But for sliding door trains to deal well with crush loadings requires more than two sets of doors per side on each vehicle, and an open internal layout in addition. Which then makes the trains unsuitable for longer distance services, as people are discovering as the S-stock has come into use.

 

[ainsworth74]

After transpennine electrification, 185s would be good fr the route, good acceleration, comfortable seats, buffet services etc.

What buffets? Also whilst I agree that in many ways 185s might seem to suit the highlands (apart from they need new seats that aren't rock hard, they're okay for an hour or so but beyond that...) what with their hill climbing and other features the problem is the weight. I'm not sure that the lines (or at least the extremities that don't have freight) would be able to take the weight without being maintained to a higher standard.

 

[Manchester77]

You get a trolly come through the train i didn't word it very well!

 

[ainsworth74]

You get a trolly come through the train

There is a trolley on the current services.

 

[Eagle]

I'd say 185s would be better on Scottish south–north expresses (the hillclimbing would be good for the Highland Mainline, for instance).

 

[RAGNARØKR]

What was the journey time then as compared to now? The journey time is probably far too short now to justify a full restaurant car

8 mark 1s is only equivalent to 7 mark 3s in length terms too....

Around 1960 it was about an hour and a quarter to Oxford, with a stop at Reading. There was an up train about 17.30 which took under an hour with a Castle and six, known as the Oxford Flyer. Whether you regard the changes as an improvement depends on how much you value speed rather than comfort. The assumption was that people would value the saving of a few minutes. Personally I would prefer to lose a few minutes and travel in the comfort of a hauled vehicle with generously spaced seats than in the trains running now. But nobody was given the choice.
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From a slightly different prospect, how about 158s (or are they 159s?) on the Lymington services during the week, or the 158s on the hourly 'Romsey 6' services off-peak? Silent from my experience and impressions you get on here from various threads. I know it's not ideal and not entirely logistical, but surely some lines currently stuck with single 153s (like the Cumbrian Coast and bits in Lincolnshire) are more deserving of the 2-car Sprinter than these lines?

The Hampshire 159s are serviced at Salisbury. The depot would not be wanting to service other types of stock, which is presumably why SWT got rid of Turbostars.

 

[HSTEd]

Around 1960 it was about an hour and a quarter to Oxford, with a stop at Reading. There was an up train about 17.30 which took under an hour with a Castle and six, known as the Oxford Flyer. Whether you regard the changes as an improvement depends on how much you value speed rather than comfort. The assumption was that people would value the saving of a few minutes. Personally I would prefer to lose a few minutes and travel in the comfort of a hauled vehicle with generously spaced seats than in the trains running now. But nobody was given the choice.

We now have a HST that apparently does it in an hour dead in the down direction (0943 out of Pad to Hereford), with stops at Slough, Reading and Didcot.
IEP will likely cut ten minutes off these times since it will almost certainly, given its Japanese ancestry, accelerate like a scalded cat.

Which means we are now looking at ~50 minutes with more stops than these trains that were given full blown restaurant services, which is a decrease of nearly 30% when IEP arrives.

I think this is a worthwhile tradeoff, and reducing seat densities was never going to happen, this is simply the arithmetic of capitalism, the more passengers the greater the income.

As to reusing hauled vehicles...... whether or not the economics will ever work for any purposes at all depends on whether or not the Class 90s last, whether new freight electrics are ordered that will free the remaining units for service for another 15 years and whether or not passenger growth continues as rapidly as it has done in the past.

 

[BestWestern]

The Hampshire 159s are serviced at Salisbury. The depot would not be wanting to service other types of stock, which is presumably why SWT got rid of Turbostars.

There is a valid point however that using 158s on the Lymington run is entirely inappropriate, particularly considering the line is electrified and sees a Desiro at the weekends. I see no reason why SWT couldn't have retained the pair of 'Slammers' until something else was available, their 158/159 allocation is substantially over the top considering we have other TOCs in dire need. At least they look after them though!

 

[wintonian]

There is a valid point however that using 158s on the Lymington run is entirely inappropriate, particularly considering the line is electrified and sees a Desiro at the weekends. I see no reason why SWT couldn't have retained the pair of 'Slammers' until something else was available, their 158/159 allocation is substantially over the top considering we have other TOCs in dire need. At least they look after them though!

It maybe over the top but using a 450 IMO is seriously OTT.

I am very fond of the line having grown up round those parts but (and I am very embarrassed to say this) removing the juice and using a pacer would be quite acceptable.

My preferred option however would be to run a Eastleigh to Lymington Pier vis Romsey (possibly Salisbury) service in place of the figure of 6.

 

[RAGNARØKR]

There is a valid point however that using 158s on the Lymington run is entirely inappropriate, particularly considering the line is electrified and sees a Desiro at the weekends. I see no reason why SWT couldn't have retained the pair of 'Slammers' until something else was available, their 158/159 allocation is substantially over the top considering we have other TOCs in dire need. At least they look after them though!

There was probably getting to be a shortage of spares. Perhaps the best option would be to sub-contract the service to the Swanage Railway. They would certainly get more passengers. Then there is this.
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We now have a HST that apparently does it in an hour dead in the down direction (0943 out of Pad to Hereford), with stops at Slough, Reading and Didcot.
IEP will likely cut ten minutes off these times since it will almost certainly, given its Japanese ancestry, accelerate like a scalded cat.

Which means we are now looking at ~50 minutes with more stops than these trains that were given full blown restaurant services, which is a decrease of nearly 30% when IEP arrives.

I think this is a worthwhile tradeoff, and reducing seat densities was never going to happen, this is simply the arithmetic of capitalism, the more passengers the greater the income.

As to reusing hauled vehicles...... whether or not the economics will ever work for any purposes at all depends on whether or not the Class 90s last, whether new freight electrics are ordered that will free the remaining units for service for another 15 years and whether or not passenger growth continues as rapidly as it has done in the past.

How quickly anything will accelerate depends not on its ancestry but on the power to weight ratio. Since it will be electrically powered, acceleration is not going to be an issue. Even a CIG or the old Clacton units could have knocked time off the journey compared to a steam or diesel powered train, and with a decent amount of legroom and elbow room as well. But acceleration and speed come at a price, which requires efficient regeneration to recover some of that cost.

If it was a matter of the arithmetic of capitalism, whatever that is, the logic of the bean counters is that kit with a bit of life in it should be kept going until it gets too expensive to repair, and too expensive means that the cost of replacement has to be looked at, together with the savings, if any, arising from any replacement. Just as any sensible householder does when considering replacing their washing machine or central heating boiler.

Funny though that capitalist countries like Sweden and Denmark manage to provide their passengers with a decent amount of space even on new trains. How do you explain that difference?

I don't think it's capitalism, it is what those who run the system choose to spend their money on. For my money, I would prefer to take longer on the journey if it meant it could be made in more comfort.

 

[krus_aragon]

Heart of Wales line with a 153?

More inappropriate is a 142. They don't normally run as they're not cleared to Shrewsbury, but whan there were engineering works north of Llandrindod I had the company of one on my day out to Llanymddyfri (and back).

 

[richw]

Didn't 14* up until recently work some cardiff to Exeter services? That was definitely inappropriate

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[Goatboy]

The Hampshire 159s are serviced at Salisbury. The depot would not be wanting to service other types of stock, which is presumably why SWT got rid of Turbostars.

Whilst I am sure this is a real excuse I cannot imagine that the servicing requirements of a 150 are completely different to that of a 158 such that a trained and qualified fitter cannot cope with both types of unit.

It just seems like madness that if you wish to travel from Weymouth to Great Malvern for 5 hours you must do so on 3+2 150 yet if you want to pop from Brockenhurst to Lymington you do so in a comfortable, carpetted and airconditioned 158.

 

[ValleyLines142]

Didn't 14* up until recently work some cardiff to Exeter services? That was definitely inappropriate

Yes, a 143 was booked for the 1300 Cardiff to Exeter service, although it's now in the hands of a 150/1 which is still awful!

One even works the 0600 Penzance to Cardiff service!!