Please help court summons!! Upset and worried :(

[Sd389]

Hi. I there anybody that can help me please as im extremely worried over a letter I received today..

Basically a Summons to court because of southeastern trains. Stating that I boarded te train at a station where ticket purchasing facilities were available, without a valid ticket.

This happene way back in May this yet, I received a letter asking for my side of the events not too long ago. So I replied with what I will explain in. Abit. Heard nothing at all in reply. So assumed it was left at that as I feel that southeastern are in the wrong.

So basically in may. I finished my night work. Have to catch my train home from an unmanned ticket station. There is no ticket machines at all. Just a permit machine. Usually obtain a permit to travel and exchange it for a ticket at some point in my journey as there is 3legs to it. On this particular day the machine was out of order with the red light lit. So I couldn't do anything else except board my train to make my journey home.

Got on the train. Tired, headphones in to make the 8 minute train journey to the next part of my journey. Get of the train to be greeted by railway enforcement officers. She asked about my ticket and I explained the machine was out of order and needed to buy one.

She then went on to explain that she see me board the train and try were all on te same carriage as me on that train. So I said well then you know that I got on at tht stop then..

She became very intimitadating/ bullying manner, and told me I should have approached her or the conductor on the train to buy a ticket.
I told her I found this quite absurd for a 8 minute journey when I have two more stations to pass through. The station where I was at now was where I was going to buy one, that it wasn't my fault that the facilities are not in order at the station I boarded at.

She phoned through my details. And on two previou stupid occasions I have been fined. One for a change of plan after buying a ticket and going two stops further. And the second time the queue was horrendous and I had to e in London for training so jumped on the train. Went to the fares to pay booth to but my ticket at London bridge and they thing you know they was fining me.

So always take extra precaution when using trains now as I know that the railway people don't care about people who intend to pay but for reasons or another have yet to get a ticket. Not like I was going for gold over the barriers..

So.. There was no facilities to purchase a ticket.

Do I need a solicitor? I really don't want to plead guilty feel like its wrong for me to do so plus I have read it goes on my criminal record. So am now worried about my job.

Also somewhere in the letter that the defendant had no means to pay the fare due. Complete lies. I wanted to buy a ticket.. I offered and she refused. Such a huge company trying to make extra revenue is all it seems these people are doing ((

 

[Ferret]

What offence does it specify on the summons?

 

[Sd389]

I don't really know? Says I am summoned to appear in November to answer the following information Laid today.

That you on 12th may 2012 at so and so.. Boarded the train at a station where ticket purchasing facilities were available, without a Cali ticket or other authority for the journey.

Is that it? X

 

[Ferret]

I don't really know? Says I am summoned to appear in November to answer the following information Laid today.

That you on 12th may 2012 at so and so.. Boarded the train at a station where ticket purchasing facilities were available, without a Cali ticket or other authority for the journey.

Is that it? X

I'd have thought it would specify the offence you've allegedly committed? Byelaw 18 or section 5 of the Regulation of Railways Act?

 

[yorkie]

If what you say is true, they have no case whatsoever. I would definitely be seeking the assistance of a solicitor.

If you boarded at a station with no facilities at all and you were willing and able to pay the fare when approached then you have done nothing wrong whatsoever, and you should have been sold the lowest price ticket(s) for your journey.

 

[Ferret]

If what you say is true, they have no case whatsoever. I would definitely be seeking the assistance of a solicitor.

If you boarded at a station with no facilities at all and you were willing and able to pay the fare when approached then you have done nothing wrong whatsoever, and you should have been sold the lowest price ticket(s) for your journey.

Well, you've jumped in with what I was thinking, especially if it's Byelaw 18 they are going with. But, I wanted to be sure before I came steaming over the hill in my big Panzer tank!

 

[Sd389]

Okay thank you! Hmm I can see a brief bit in small print about bye law under what I just quoted for you. Not sure if that is it. I will get my other half to glance over the paperwork tomorrow for me and get back to you.

Also if I get a solicitor and get found not guilty do southeastern then pay my costs?
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---
Also is it literally my word Vs the railway officer? Is a bank statement from that month proving that I had money sufficient enough do you think? As I always have money in the bank

 

[yorkie]

IANAL but in my opinion a bank statement will be of no use, you need to have a means of payment on you.

It is my understanding that if you win the case, SET will pay your costs. I am aware of someone on this forum who ensured a victory over FCC who incurred a 4-figure sum in solicitors fees, which FCC were forced to pay them. FCC in fact withdrew the case at the last moment, when they realised the case would be robustly defended.

 

[Ferret]

Okay thank you! Hmm I can see a brief bit in small print about bye law under what I just quoted for you. Not sure if that is it. I will get my other half to glance over the paperwork tomorrow for me and get back to you.

If it's byelaw 18, and what you say in your opening post is correct, then there is no case to answer. Byelaw 18 specifically says as much - if there are no ticket issuing facilities then no offence is committed. What I'm worried about is that they claim you had no funds to pay your fare, which goes into the territory of the more serious Regulation of Railways Act offence I alluded to. Over to you!

 

[Sd389]

No I Definately had funds on me. Cash and card as I ended up getting a cab in the end to cover the rest of my journey where the woman delayed me so much I'd missed my connecting train to get my little one from my sitters.

Literally the first thing I said was that I needed to go purchase a ticket. How would I prove this then? Hmm
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---
"contrary to bylaw 18 of the railways byelwas 2005, made under section 219 of the transport Act 2000" Is that it?

 

[ainsworth74]

But, I wanted to be sure before I came steaming over the hill in my big Panzer tank!

Is that a new nickname for Voyagers?

To the OP it sounds like you're being prosecuted under Byelaw 18. In which case I do not see how they can be successful as the wording of the Byelaw clearly states that if there was no opportunity to buy before travel then you can't be in contravention of the Byelaw.

18. Ticketless travel in non-compulsory ticket areas

(1) In any area not designated as a compulsory ticket area, no person shall enter any train for the purpose of travelling on the railway unless he has with him a valid ticket entitling him to travel.

(2) A person shall hand over his ticket for inspection and verification of validity when asked to do so by an authorised person.

(3) No person shall be in breach of Byelaw 18(1) or 18(2) if:

(i) there were no facilities in working order for the issue or
validation of any ticket at the time when, and the station where,
he began his journey...

I am not a lawyer! So the above is not legal advice.

 

[34D]

I received a letter asking for my side of the events not too long ago. So I replied with what I will explain in. Abit.

What exactly did you say at this point, please?

 

[Sd389]

I'm searching all through. There is a photocopy of the slip she filled out on the day that I stupidly signed as she made me feel like I had to or she woul ring the police. That is all about Byelaw 18.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---
@34D it was a long letter detailing the events in a bit more detail than above. Would have to get it off my memory stick at home and post it. If I'm allowed to do this.

 

[ainsworth74]

Would have to get it off my memory stick at home and post it. If I'm allowed to do this.

I'm not sure it would be wise to post it online. A summary would be fine.

 

[Ferret]

Is that a new nickname for Voyagers?

Ha! They aren't sturdy enough to be called tanks!

To the OP it sounds like you're being prosecuted under Byelaw 18. In which case I do not see how they can be successful as the wording of the Byelaw clearly states that if there was no opportunity to buy before travel then you can't be in contravention of the Byelaw.

Well we now know it's byelaw 18, and that it seems past history has swayed a revenue inspector into making an error!

 

[Sd389]

Guys thank you! Will dig the letter out tomorrow!! Will sleep better tonight x

 

[ainsworth74]

Guys thank you! Will dig the letter out tomorrow!! Will sleep better tonight x

Glad we could help, it's what we're here for

 

[BestWestern]

A couple of points worth drawing from this debacle I suppose. If you were in such a situation, always well worth taking a photo if you have the means to do so, to provide evidence of the lack of working facilities. Even send the photo as a media message after taking it to prove the time/date if you want to be extra cautious.

I presume the OP has clearly stated in their previous correspondence to SET that the Pertis machine was out of order, but presumably the whole case would now hinge on whether SET accept that was actually the case; could they deny it?

And as for the threat of police, one has to wonder whether there are certain situations, when you can be as good as certain that you are in the right, when it would be reasonable to refuse to simply sign whatever paperwork is thrust at you, and let them summon the police; I'm pretty sure I would.

Assuming the story told is correct, I hope the OP has a positive outcome here.

 

[Ferret]

With an interview under caution undertaken by a PACE-trained RPI, the interviewee is asked to sign the RPIs book at the end of the conversation. Two reasons - so that it is an accurate record of that conversation and so that the RPI cannot add anything afterwards to in effect pervert the course of justice!

The RPI's notebook is a legal document and it can be required to be produced in Court as evidence.

I'm not sure here whether the OP was interviewed under caution here or not, but my opinion is that it's better to sign than not to, just in case the RPI is tempted to overegg the pudding when he writes up the MG11.

 

[GadgetMan]

Got on the train. Tired, headphones in to make the 8 minute train journey to the next part of my journey. Get of the train to be greeted by railway enforcement officers. She asked about my ticket and I explained the machine was out of order and needed to buy one.

She then went on to explain that she see me board the train and try were all on te same carriage as me on that train. So I said well then you know that I got on at tht stop then..

Can you be sure that the Inspector did not come through the carriage asking for tickets from the stop you got on at? Perhaps you may have had your eyes shut as well as having headphones on and therefore gave the Inspector the impression you ignored the opportunity to purchase a ticket by letting her walk straight by you.

 

[WillPS]

Hmmm. I've wondered about this myself. I got on a train from Kidwelly (unmanned, no ticket machine) and I was half-asleep, headphones in as you describe - if I had missed the guard (as I almost did) would I be guilty of an offence?

 

[Ferret]

Hmmm. I've wondered about this myself. I got on a train from Kidwelly (unmanned, no ticket machine) and I was half-asleep, headphones in as you describe - if I had missed the guard (as I almost did) would I be guilty of an offence?

Hmmmm, possibly, though I'd say it may depend on your actions at the end of the line! The gist is that it's your responsibility to pay your fare.

 

[Sd389]

No Nobody walked up or down the carriage giving me the option to purchase a ticket at all. In hindsight after the ordeal. They were sitting in the carriage I was on with there hats off. Just looked like a southeastern employee finishing her shift going home. Didn't appear to be working at all.

Somebody else mentioned to me about taking a photo of the machine at the time - but you don't really think at the time. Just knew I had done all I could with what is at the station to get a ticket except walking up and down the train trying to find a conductor. 8 minute train journey and after a 12 hour night shift it was the least of my worries until now :/ All over a 3 pound fair. Absurd.


Going to ring CAB tomorrow morning though for some legal advice if possible.

 

[BestWestern]

Hmmm. I've wondered about this myself. I got on a train from Kidwelly (unmanned, no ticket machine) and I was half-asleep, headphones in as you describe - if I had missed the guard (as I almost did) would I be guilty of an offence?

In that situation, having boarded without a ticket (even through no fault of your own) and knowing that you still require one, I would think it reasonable to suggest that 'plugging yourself in' and having a snooze could be interpreted as you failing to ensure that you attempt to purchase a ticket should the Guard be available during your journey. It's also textbook 'dodger behaviour, which doesn't help!