East Coast Pendolino Update

[SkinnyDave]

Spoke to East Coast guard on way to Newcastle this morning and asked him if he heard anymore on Pendolino test.
He said that they would be getting them in 2016! I asked if he meant IEP trains and he said no they would come later.
He didn't seem to be at wind up has anyone else heard anything?

 

[ash39]

99% sure he will have got the wrong end of the stick.

Why would he know something that wasn't in the public domain? He's a guard not a stock procurement manager! Plus the idea is ridiculous, running two different types of train with different servicing requirements etc.

 

[ainsworth74]

Plus the idea is ridiculous, running two different types of train with different servicing requirements etc.

Quite the very thought of the East Coast franchise having two different types of train is ludicrous in the extreme

On a more serious note I have to agree with the above, assuming that tilt is out for the ECML (and I think that's a safe assumption), then any future EMUs on that line have got to be IEP surely? It makes no sense to procure Bi-Mode IEP and then, rather than going for commonality and procuring EMU IEP, instead procure a different EMU entirely.

 

[ash39]

Come on, the current situation is a bit different as the fleets date from 15 years apart!!

The idea of ordering two new sets of different train is very unlikely. If the idea is to replace the 91/mk4 sets as well, I'm sure this will be done with more IEP vehicles. Certainly from what I've read this is a possibility, by 2020.

 

[sprinterguy]

This sounds to be nothing more than a flight of fancy given that the operator of the East Coast franchise in 2016 is not yet known, as the new franchise is still a while away from being awarded, and hence it is not possible to know what the chosen operators' rolling stock policy will be. The IEP train order is known as it is sanctioned by the DfT rather than being entirely down to TOC discretion.

Additionally it would be ludicruous if the IC225s ended up being replaced by Pendolinos ahead of the replacement of the HSTs, which are 10 - 15 years older, by IEP.

The West Coast franchise was due to take delivery of a new fleet of trains that were widely speculated to consist of 6-car "Baby Pendolinos" in 2016 during the First Group franchise, but even this is now no longer a given, now that the franchising process is completely up in the air again.
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The idea of ordering two new sets of different train is very unlikely. If the idea is to replace the 91/mk4 sets as well, I'm sure this will be done with more IEP vehicles. Certainly from what I've read this is a possibility, by 2020.

Indeed, there is a future option for 30 x 9-car IEP electric trains covering 26 diagrams to replace the 225s at some point after the initial GWML and ECML IEP fleets have been delivered.

 

[ainsworth74]

Indeed, there is a future option for 30 x 9-car IEP electric trains covering 26 diagrams to replace the 225s at some point after the initial GWML and ECML IEP fleets have been delivered.

I think that order is almost a certainty to go ahead, if for no other reason than the government (either the current or a post 2015 one) will need it to keep the new train plant open for another year or two.

 

[Yew]

I get the feelign that the only time we will see ECML pendos will be in a WCML diversion. The opposite happened a few weeks ago with the ECML fleet going via the WCML

 

[IanXC]

I get the feelign that the only time we will see ECML pendos will be in a WCML diversion. The opposite happened a few weeks ago with the ECML fleet going via the WCML

Even that is quite unlikely, while East Coast only have the option of diverting via Carlisle, West Coast have the Settle and Carlisle, Glasgow South Western and ultimately the Cumbrian Coast.

 

[sprinterguy]

I get the feelign that the only time we will see ECML pendos will be in a WCML diversion.

I think that even the chances of that happening are slim: I don't think that West Coast Intercity services have been diverted via the ECML in the past 15 - 20 years, only the Scottish sleepers. I cannot think of hearing about any such occurence prior to that time period either, whereas Newcastle to Edinburgh via Carlisle has been an accepted diversionary route for ECML services for decades, and has become an annual fixture every autumn over the past eight years.

 

[Manchester77]

To run on diversions would the ECML need tass for the pendolinos to run or is this just for them to tilt?

(I hope I got the letters right)

 

[ainsworth74]

To run on diversions would the ECML need tass for the pendolinos to run or is this just for them to tilt?

TASS is only required for tilt. A 390 has run on testing between Edinburgh and Kings Cross with no issues.

 

[captainbigun]

TASS is only required for tilt. A 390 has run on testing between Edinburgh and Kings Cross with no issues.

At 110mph.

125mph operation for Pendolino requires TASS.

All irrelevant anyway as EC is not getting Pendolino, it will get the farce that is IEP to replace HST and only if (big IF) the 91/Mk4 fleet is stood down will a further order of IEPs be placed.

 

[sprinterguy]

At 110mph.

125mph operation for Pendolino requires TASS.

That is the case on the WCML, where the more sinuous nature of the route limits non-tilting stock to the maximum speed that was permitted prior to the West Coast Route Modernisation, but why would this be the case on the ECML, which is operated solely by non-tilt stock running at 125mph day in, day out?

 

[captainbigun]

That is the case on the WCML, where the more sinuous nature of the route limits non-tilting stock to the maximum speed that was permitted prior to the West Coast Route Modernisation, but why would this be the case on the ECML, which is operated solely by non-tilt stock running at 125mph day in, day out?

That's the way the Pendolino software is written, and I suspect the safety case too.

You'd build a full gauge Pendo for 125mph non-tilt operation.

 

[SkinnyDave]

Tony Collins wrote into Modern railways or railway mag recently stating that Pendolino on test run did run at 125mph

Rails magazine article couple of months ago had Alstoms sales pitch for ECML, and meet the managers in East Coast did say that electric fleet needed looked at but IEP must be first preference.

 

[captainbigun]

Tony Collins wrote into Modern railways or railway mag recently stating that Pendolino on test run did run at 125mph
.

That's not the case, you've either read wrong or someone has been mistaken or misquoted. The safety case for Pendo requires TASS to be operational above 110mph. The software will restrict the speed unless two baliases read consecutively. And then the speed is limited by the baliase, if the driver doesn't slow down, the train will for him!

 

[SkinnyDave]

That's not the case, you've either read wrong or someone has been mistaken or misquoted. The safety case for Pendo requires TASS to be operational above 110mph. The software will restrict the speed unless two baliases read consecutively. And then the speed is limited by the baliase, if the driver doesn't slow down, the train will for him!

Contact both of the magazines the magazine said that the test would only run at 110 mph and Collins wrote in to letters page saying that it ran at 125 as he was there.

 

[captainbigun]

Contact both of the magazines the magazine said that the test would only run at 110 mph and Collins wrote in to letters page saying that it ran at 125 as he was there.

You're all right I'll go with the version of events I've had.

 

[Pumbaa]

That's not the case, you've either read wrong or someone has been mistaken or misquoted. The safety case for Pendo requires TASS to be operational above 110mph. The software will restrict the speed unless two baliases read consecutively. And then the speed is limited by the baliase, if the driver doesn't slow down, the train will for him!

It was, err, fudged by Alstom. Tony Miles issued a clarification two weeks ago(?) that yes the Pendo had ran at 125 using a confusing mix of safety cases, VT drivers and strictly no passengers other than operational members of staff on board.

 

[captainbigun]

Strange as I've been advised exactly the opposite by someone else close to events!

Oh we'll, whatever, it's ultimately of no relevance.

 

[Pumbaa]

Sadly yes. It's in a recent ish thread on wnxx - if I can find it I'll direct you to it via PM over there.

 

[MCR247]

Would it take a lot for a 390 to be able to run at 125 on a standard line without TASS as it isn't needed? Does seem quite strange? 221s can run at 125mph without tilting?

 

[DXMachina]

I bet they had a laptop plugged in and were overriding systems dynamically or using 'testing only' overrides. I bet Pendos ran at high speed without TASS during testing / advanced design /acceptance trials. And surely any train management system has a testbed setting where defaults can be overridden for maintenance/diagnosis ?

 

[YorkshireBear]

I bet they had a laptop plugged in and were overriding systems dynamically or using 'testing only' overrides. I bet Pendos ran at high speed without TASS during testing / advanced design /acceptance trials. And surely any train management system has a testbed setting where defaults can be overridden for maintenance/diagnosis ?

Youd think so wouldn't you, the pendilinos must have been tested at 140mph at somtime surely? Even if in europe.

 

[sprinterguy]

Youd think so wouldn't you, the pendilinos must have been tested at 140mph at somtime surely? Even if in europe.

I think I recall that the Pendolinos were tested at up to 137.5mph (125mph plus 10%) over the northern stretches of the WCML through the Lake District before they entered squadron service.

 

[YorkshireBear]

I think I recall that the Pendolinos were tested at up to 137.5mph (125mph plus 10%) over the northern stretches of the WCML through the Lake District before they entered squadron service.

Oh wow, i bet that was fun!!!

 

[captainbigun]

Would it take a lot for a 390 to be able to run at 125 on a standard line without TASS as it isn't needed? Does seem quite strange? 221s can run at 125mph without tilting?

Software change which would then need to go through approval and then the safety case would need to be obtained.

221s with their tilt removed can do 125mph without TASS, not sure about the WC examples still with tilt, I expect they have the same TASS requirement.

 

[MCR247]

They must be able to 125 without TASS or are you telling me that in VXC days 221s would be limited to 110mph on 125 sections on say the ECML?

 

[Darandio]

That is exactly what I was thinking.

 

[captainbigun]

They must be able to 125 without TASS or are you telling me that in VXC days 221s would be limited to 110mph on 125 sections on say the ECML?

It's a good question....not that the tilt was working very often!