Locomotives which are no longer preserved.

[12CSVT]

As many of us will no doubt know, a lot diesel locomotives have been preserved over the last 20 years. However one thing which doesn't get much mention is the fact that many locomotives have also left preservation, including some which had been restored to working order. Although most of the locos that have left preservation have either returned to the main line, some have, for whatever reason, simply gone for scrap.

Some of those with the dubious honour of running in preservation but have since been cut up include
20206 - restored to working order at Mid Norfolk Railway but sold to a main line operator who used it for spares and sent it for scrap.
31123 (D5541) - despite being used at the Gloucestershire Warwickshire Railway it fell into disuse for many years and eventually sent for scrap.
31166 (D5584) - worked at the Wensleydale Railway a few times in 2005, and, like the 20 it was sold to a main line operator and went for scrap.
47575 - worked at the East Lancs Railway in 2006, moved to Crewe Heritage Centre, and bizarrely went for scrap shortly after being repainted BR blue.
56040 - restored to working order, and ran at Mid Norfolk Railway before moving to the Battlefield Line. However major defects were discovered and the owning group disposed of it, and instead purchased 56301 which was in vastly superior condition.

There is probably a list a mile long of locos which have been 'de-preserved' for a return to the main line, or sold to industry, or moved abroad - 20056 (once at Caledonian Railway, Brechin, but now in use at Scunthorpe Steelworks), 37029 (returned to the main line by DRS following a brief stint in preservation at Crewe Heritage Centre, but since returned to preservation), 56101 (now on the main line in hungary) all spring to mind.

 

[kermit]

This begs a really serious question.

How many of the 1950s-1980s diesels (and electrics) that have been preserved in such vast numbers will still be with us in 2030?

Will it be the law of the jungle that decides (probably), or is it possible that some strategic thinking could be introduced to an inherently anarchic Preservation movement?

 

[Tiny Tim]

The preservation of steam was even more random. Apart from the national collection, most of the examples retained were those lucky enough to escape the cutting torch and be the subject of a well-funded whim. As a consequence we have enough Black Fives and 9Fs to run a small network, whilst many important examples (i.e. those not sent to Barry scrapyard) were peremptorily scrapped. The very existence of Tornado speaks volumes about how steam preservation didn't work.

 

[craig87034]

As many of us will no doubt know, a lot diesel locomotives have been preserved over the last 20 years. However one thing which doesn't get much mention is the fact that many locomotives have also left preservation, including some which had been restored to working order. Although most of the locos that have left preservation have either returned to the main line, some have, for whatever reason, simply gone for scrap.
.

http://www.preserved-diesels.co.uk/engines/index_ex.htm

 

[fgwrich]

http://www.preserved-diesels.co.uk/engines/index_ex.htm

That list looks slightly out of date to me. Another two locos to add or correct to that list which have come full circle would be 73119 - EWS, Cambrian Trains (Pres), Knights Rail (Semi Preserved) and now back to the mainline with GBRF, and 73138 - Also ex EWS, Then the AC Locomotive Group, and now back to the mainline with Network Rail.

Also, although not completely back on the mainline, how about 47703 - Ex EWS, Fragonset, HNRC (Semi preserved on the Wensleydale Railway) and looks set to return back to the mainline under HNRC ownership.

 

[Tim R-T-C]

Will it be the law of the jungle that decides (probably), or is it possible that some strategic thinking could be introduced to an inherently anarchic Preservation movement?

Lamentably this is unlikely, even within dedicated groups there are vast differences in view over what should be saved and what should be allowed to go. Some favour investing entirely in a single loco with the aim of keeping it running, while others seem determined to keep hold of every loco still in existence no matter what condition it is in. This leads to splintering and the dozens of overlapping groups that exist today - sadly this will inevitably lead to smaller groups going bust and locos that they have invested time and money into going to scrap. Yet, the smaller groups are often more productive and dedicated and large groups can easily become more focused on committee issues than actually getting anything done...

 

[PFX]

...snip the smaller groups are often more productive and dedicated and large groups can easily become more focused on committee issues than actually getting anything done...

Politcs. The bane of railway preservation everywhere!

 

[Spagnoletti]

If the price of diesel continues to rise expect to see far fewer preserved diesels running, even at 25mph and not paying fuel duty it's becoming difficult to balance the books.

More on topic - those owners with deep pockets will be able to cover the rising costs of spares, the rest will go to the (scrapyard) wall.

 

[bronzeonion]

Cooking oil anyone?

 

[12CSVT]

http://www.preserved-diesels.co.uk/engines/index_ex.htm

I wouldn't count a loco purchased specifically for spares as 'preserved'.

 

[theblackwatch]

I wouldn't count either 47703 or 47575 as ever being preserved. Although based on preserved railways, they are/were owned by commercial companies (HNRC and Riviera Trains) rather than preservationists.

 

[LE Greys]

The preservation of steam was even more random. Apart from the national collection, most of the examples retained were those lucky enough to escape the cutting torch and be the subject of a well-funded whim. As a consequence we have enough Black Fives and 9Fs to run a small network, whilst many important examples (i.e. those not sent to Barry scrapyard) were peremptorily scrapped. The very existence of Tornado speaks volumes about how steam preservation didn't work.

I agree with that! But the efforts to rectify some of this have ultimately cost us quite a few locomotives. GWR designs (with their modular parts) have suffered a lot. 7927 Willington Hall is now in two pieces, with the frames becoming part of a county, whilst the boiler will end up as part of Betton Grange. Perairie 4115 has become another parts donor, splitting up into several other locomotives. To a certain extent, 4921 Maindy Hall has now had such a heavy rebuild, it's debatable whether she is the same locomotive. The same goes for 5193, which is now 9351, Perairie to Mogul conversion. Finally, there's the first 'Trigger's Broom' another GWR loco where they replaced the main frames, the old ones now scrapped.

It's a pity LNER locomotives were less modular, I'd love to see a P2, a P1, a K3, a Claud-Hamilton or even a J51 (it's no coincidence that they all ran on the southern ECML).

 

[E&W Lucas]

I agree with that! But the efforts to rectify some of this have ultimately cost us quite a few locomotives. GWR designs (with their modular parts) have suffered a lot. 7927 Willington Hall is now in two pieces, with the frames becoming part of a county, whilst the boiler will end up as part of Betton Grange. Perairie 4115 has become another parts donor, splitting up into several other locomotives.

To what extent were these "locos" actually preserved?
They were derilict remains, with close to a million likely to have been needed to make them serviceable again - each! They had already been heavily stripped prior to leaving Barry. This just completes a process, started long ago.

 

[LE Greys]

To what extent were these "locos" actually preserved?
They were derilict remains, with close to a million likely to have been needed to make them serviceable again - each! They had already been heavily stripped prior to leaving Barry. This just completes a process, started long ago.

That is a very good point. So, have these 'not quite preserved' locos finally been scrapped? Judging by the state of them (image link below - think it's about ten years old) the Barry Ten are really only useful for component recovery anyway. However, there's still Small Perairie 4561, where they replaced the main frames (I've dug through back issues of Railway Magazine and confirmed the number). This would mean that what had once been a preserved loco owned by the WSR, in service up to 1999, has now ceased to exist. In its place is 'Trigger's Broom', effectively a clone of 4561.

http://www.trackbed.com/vogr/woodham/barry10_woodham.jpg

 

[Jatos]

Its sad seeing old trains go...

 

[BestWestern]

That is a very good point. So, have these 'not quite preserved' locos finally been scrapped? Judging by the state of them (image link below - think it's about ten years old) the Barry Ten are really only useful for component recovery anyway. However, there's still Small Perairie 4561, where they replaced the main frames (I've dug through back issues of Railway Magazine and confirmed the number). This would mean that what had once been a preserved loco owned by the WSR, in service up to 1999, has now ceased to exist. In its place is 'Trigger's Broom', effectively a clone of 4561.

http://www.trackbed.com/vogr/woodham/barry10_woodham.jpg

I'm curious (and, clearly, uneducated!) here. Are these locos still in situ as in this photo? In Wales presumably?

 

[Royston Vasey]

May 2010:

http://www.flickr.com/photos/taffytank/4568474345/
http://www.flickr.com/photos/taffytank/4568474341/

 

[sprinterguy]

That is a very good point. So, have these 'not quite preserved' locos finally been scrapped? Judging by the state of them (image link below - think it's about ten years old) the Barry Ten are really only useful for component recovery anyway.

You seem to already have a reasonable idea of what is going on with at least some of the constituent locos of the "Barry 10", but just for clarity, this post from the National Preservation forum details the present status of the eleven (Yes, eleven - One more was added after the "Barry 10" title had been coined) locomotives:

2861 - At Barry awaiting transfer to Llangollen. Cylinder block going towards 47XX. Further parts may be utilised on same project in Future, but nothing else confirmed to date.

4115 - At Llangollen being dismantled. Wheels & Extension & Frames to 47XX. Boiler to 6634. Frames to go to another loco.

5227 - At Barry awaiting transfer to LR. Axleboxes and Hornties to be used on 47XX. Remains to be transferred to Didcot for display. Boiler earmarked for possible 38XX Project.

5538 - Under restoration Dean Forest Railway using spare boiler (did have a wooden boiler at Barry)

5539 - Under restoration at Llangollen Railway.

6686 - Stored at Barry former EWS Depot. Plans to be restored for Barry Island Railway.

7927 - Frames & Wheels gone to County Project. Boiler to Grange Project.

(4)4901 - Stored at Barry Depot and to undergo restoration.

(4)8518 - Boiler to County Project. Wheels and cylinder have been removed. Frames possibly to transfer to repatriated 8F at Barry Depot.

80150 - Awaiting restoration at Mid Hants Railway.

92245 - Stored at Barry Depot. Plans are to use as display of a scrap condition locomotive.

http://railways.national-preservation.com/steam-traction/34429-barry-10-6-instance.html

--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

I'm curious (and, clearly, uneducated!) here. Are these locos still in situ as in this photo? In Wales presumably?

See my post directly above.

The locos are no longer in situ as shown by that photo. The "Barry 10" were actually eleven locomotives that were the last to leave the site of Dai Woodham's well renowned scrapyard between 1988 and 1990. The site of Dai Woodham's scrapyard at Barry Island has since been cleared for redevelopment, however the locomotives that constituted the "Barry 10" did not move very far away once they had been "rescued" from the yard: First moving to Cardiff, and then back to the old EWS depot at Barry (Only yards from where they spent over 20 years languishing from the late sixties onwards) in 1996 as part of the Vale of Glamorgan Railway's ambitions to restore the locos and operate them on their line at Barry. As noted in the list above, only four of the locos still reside at the Barry Railway Centre (As the former EWS depot and the Vale of Glamorgan Railway have become) in 2012.

 

[E&W Lucas]

That is a very good point. So, have these 'not quite preserved' locos finally been scrapped? Judging by the state of them (image link below - think it's about ten years old) the Barry Ten are really only useful for component recovery anyway. However, there's still Small Perairie 4561, where they replaced the main frames (I've dug through back issues of Railway Magazine and confirmed the number). This would mean that what had once been a preserved loco owned by the WSR, in service up to 1999, has now ceased to exist. In its place is 'Trigger's Broom', effectively a clone of 4561.

http://www.trackbed.com/vogr/woodham/barry10_woodham.jpg

Not really. It's a lump of metal, not a living creature!
Frames were replaced on locos during their service lives, yet the running number was retained. The assumption that the identity is applied to the frames, is an enthusiast myth. Mainline works replaced what needed to be replaced, and swapped components round as necessary, so as to ensure the most efficient turnround of locomotives.

 

[LE Greys]

You seem to already have a reasonable idea of what is going on with at least some of the constituent locos of the "Barry 10", but just for clarity, this post from the National Preservation forum details the present status of the eleven (Yes, eleven - One more was added after the "Barry 10" title had been coined) locomotives:


--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

See my post directly above.

The locos are no longer in situ as shown by that photo. The "Barry 10" were actually eleven locomotives that were the last to leave the site of Dai Woodham's well renowned scrapyard between 1988 and 1990. The site of Dai Woodham's scrapyard at Barry Island has since been cleared for redevelopment, however the locomotives that constituted the "Barry 10" did not move very far away once they had been "rescued" from the yard: First moving to Cardiff, and then back to the old EWS depot at Barry (Only yards from where they spent over 20 years languishing from the late sixties onwards) in 1996 as part of the Vale of Glamorgan Railway's ambitions to restore the locos and operate them on their line at Barry. As noted in the list above, only four of the locos still reside at the Barry Railway Centre (As the former EWS depot and the Vale of Glamorgan Railway have become) in 2012.

TBH, I don't really know much beyond what I hear from other people and see in the preserved railway press. What I do know about is what happens in Didcot (partly because I've seen the progress of Lady of Legend and County of Glamorgan from rusty parts to something that looks almost ready to run). I can't speak for the VoG, mostly because I've never been there.

Not really. It's a lump of metal, not a living creature!
Frames were replaced on locos during their service lives, yet the running number was retained. The assumption that the identity is applied to the frames, is an enthusiast myth. Mainline works replaced what needed to be replaced, and swapped components round as necessary, so as to ensure the most efficient turnround of locomotives.

That's true, indeed partial frame replacement was being carried out on the A3s right up to 1965. I've never been sure exactly how much of almost any preserved loco is still original. Still, the line between 'rebuild' and 'replacement' was seriously blurred for a very long time. Take Royal Scot for instance. Without getting into the issue over whether she is really The King's Dragoon Guardsman, the Fairbairn rebuild got rid of almost the entire locomotive, so its questionable whether anything of the Royal Scot that went to America still exists anyway. If so, the latest preservation overhaul might have done for it.

Coal-fired exestentionalism!

 

[talltim]

There's also the issue (for diesel and electrics) that the line between preserved and mainline has become blurred, with the advent of privatisation. 55022 on Alcan trains, preserved or in service with a small spot hire operator?

 

[E&W Lucas]

That's true, indeed partial frame replacement was being carried out on the A3s right up to 1965. I've never been sure exactly how much of almost any preserved loco is still original. Still, the line between 'rebuild' and 'replacement' was seriously blurred for a very long time. Take Royal Scot for instance. Without getting into the issue over whether she is really The King's Dragoon Guardsman, the Fairbairn rebuild got rid of almost the entire locomotive, so its questionable whether anything of the Royal Scot that went to America still exists anyway. If so, the latest preservation overhaul might have done for it.

Coal-fired exestentionalism!

Politics came into it as well. Easier to get a "rebuild" past the accounts dept, than a new loco! Especially at times, when there was a high degree of government oversight.

 

[12CSVT]

There's also the issue (for diesel and electrics) that the line between preserved and mainline has become blurred, with the advent of privatisation. 55022 on Alcan trains, preserved or in service with a small spot hire operator?

Perhaps the preserved / main line distinction for some steam locos is blurred as well. 46115 'Scots Guardsman' and 34067 'Tangmere' for example regularly work main line railtours but never (or very rarely) work passenger trains on preserved railways.

 

[Tiny Tim]

I'm very taken by LE Greys 'Trigger's broom' analogy. I think many locos are more 'Trigger's broom' than we care to think.