SWT-child tickets on machines

[Spirit]

Before I start complaining, would value your understanding on this...
I have a swt issued gold card. My son has just turned 5, we take trains a lot.
When I try to buy a £2.00 ticket for him, the TVMs won't issue it. I did ask at the ticket office and was told it 'wasn't programmed'
Really? Am I going to have to spend my next 10 years queuing when the office is open/buying on the train when closed? Is this the right way to treat their loyal customers?

 

[cookiescrumble]

Which ticket is it you are trying to buy?

Having looked at the SWT site I assume it is the one where they can travel with you for £2?

Could you imagine the problems if joe public could just walk up to a ticket machine and buy a £2 child ticket to anywhere? It is the same reason that PRIV rate tickets for staff can only be purchased from a ticket office or avantix machine.

 

[radamfi]

Can this ticket be bought online and collected from the TVM? I try to buy all my tickets online as it is the only way you get 6.06% cashback.

 

[Spirit]

Joe Public would have to go through a number of questions ie are you a child, do you have a gold card? This is a published, public, fare and imho not the same as your priv fares. To confirm that it is the fare for accompanying children on a gold card. And I don't want the faff of online. And the ticket office is often not open when we travel-just want to turn up, buy ticket and go. The simple way...

 

[cookiescrumble]

Joe Public would have to go through a number of questions ie are you a child, do you have a gold card?

That doesn't stop people lying though.

When a normal child ticket is bought from a TVM there is a prompt asking to confirm whether they are under 16 and adults still buy them. At least it proves intent when approached by a Revenue Inspector .

 

[Monty]

Joe Public would have to go through a number of questions ie are you a child, do you have a gold card? This is a published, public, fare and imho not the same as your priv fares. To confirm that it is the fare for accompanying children on a gold card. And I don't want the faff of online. And the ticket office is often not open when we travel-just want to turn up, buy ticket and go. The simple way...

The reason that type of ticket is not available on the TVMs is the same reason staff cannot purchase priv tickets from them either. It is to prevent misuse, if the ticket office is closed then you are more than entitled to approach the guard on the train and explain the situation and request the ticket you require.

 

[radamfi]

It is actually better if the ticket office is closed because you don't have to queue for a ticket at either the ticket office or the TVM. Having to queue at a ticket office is a great inconvenience given SWT's cuts in ticket offices, unless you want to deter rail travel. At worst, you should be able to buy the regular child ticket from the TVM and claim back the difference.

 

[Spirit]

That doesn't stop people lying though.

When a normal child ticket is bought from a TVM there is a prompt asking to confirm whether they are under 16 and adults still buy them. At least it proves intent when approached by a Revenue Inspector .

Which is my point...SWT have made a commercial decision not to open the office as it would cost more than the evasion-fair enough. But if they allow child tickets to be bought through the TVM, it is completely counterintuitive to penalise (whether in cost or convenience) those of us who shell out for a gold card over others who can just turn up and buy their kids a ticket...

 

[Monty]

It is actually better if the ticket office is closed because you don't have to queue for a ticket at either the ticket office or the TVM. Having to queue at a ticket office is a great inconvenience and shouldn't be necessary in 2012, unless you want to deter rail travel. At worst, you should be able to buy the regular child ticket from the TVM and claim back the difference.

The same could be said for having to queue in the post office, bank or any other retailer...

 

[radamfi]

The same could be said for having to queue in the post office, bank or any other retailer...

Rail is very important in cutting congestion and improving the environment, so deterring usage by imposing a lengthy queue is undesirable. Other retailers don't have such a responsibility.

 

[Spirit]

The reason that type of ticket is not available on the TVMs is the same reason staff cannot purchase priv tickets from them either. It is to prevent misuse, if the ticket office is closed then you are more than entitled to approach the guard on the train and explain the situation and request the ticket you require.

I have a z3-6 travelcard, and am well versed with the 'approaching the guard' scenario as I have to do it every time the office isn't open and I go to z1. 9 times out of 10 the admittedly friendly guards tell me that I have to go to the gateline at Waterloo (along with a fair few others). Sorry, it shouldn't be up to me to sort out...I can see that 10 years of hassle is on its way.

 

[maniacmartin]

Allowing every discount from TVMs would just be unworkable. People already complain about being confusing by too many buttons and ticket types. The more confusing TVMs are, the longer it takes unfamiliar customers to use them, increasing queues for everyone.

As ramfi says, you have been rewarded by SWT as a loyal customer, as when the ticket office is closed, you don't have to queue at all

 

[Spirit]

Allowing every discount from TVMs would just be unworkable. People already complain about being confusing by too many buttons and ticket types. The more confusing TVMs are, the longer it takes unfamiliar customers to use them, increasing queues for everyone.

As ramfi says, you have been rewarded by SWT as a loyal customer, as when the ticket office is closed, you don't have to queue at all

I will accept I'm not an expert at TVMs but they do read this discount, show up 2gpb after going through the process but then the 'confirm my selection' doesn't work. And this isn't exactly a random, little used or known discount.

Never complained about queuing either at office or machine-just that the latter can't actually do what I want it to...

 

[Monty]

Rail is very important in cutting congestion and improving the environment, so deterring usage by imposing a lengthy queue is undesirable. Other retailers don't have such a responsibility.

I understand your point, but unfortunately queuing is just one of those facts of life we have to accept. Yes it's not reasonable to expect passengers to wait 45 minutes during offpeak times but then again its not unreasonable to queue for 10 in the peak. If and when ITSO goes live across the country you may well find things like queuing to be greatly reduced.

 

[radamfi]

It hasn't been necessary to queue at a ticket office in the Netherlands for many years and indeed they surcharge for the privilege as all domestic tickets, including advance dated and undated tickets, and many international tickets, are available from the TVM. But now it isn't even necessary to visit a TVM as smartcards can be used pay as you go across the country and with auto-topup you never need to visit a TVM ever again.

 

[transmanche]

It hasn't been necessary to queue at a ticket office in the Netherlands for many years and indeed they surcharge for the privilege as all domestic tickets, including advance dated and undated tickets, and many international tickets, are available from the TVM. But now it isn't even necessary to visit a TVM as smartcards can be used pay as you go across the country and with auto-topup you never need to visit a TVM ever again.

But the Netherlands has a simple, sensible and straightforward fares system.

 

[radamfi]

But the Netherlands has a simple, sensible and straightforward fares system.

Is that a good thing? Proponents of the British system might argue that having a complicated and silly fares system is preferable so that ticket offices will continue to be required.

 

[34D]

Before I start complaining, would value your understanding on this...
I have a swt issued gold card. My son has just turned 5, we take trains a lot.
When I try to buy a £2.00 ticket for him, the TVMs won't issue it. I did ask at the ticket office and was told it 'wasn't programmed'
Really? Am I going to have to spend my next 10 years queuing when the office is open/buying on the train when closed? Is this the right way to treat their loyal customers?

I have a z3-6 travelcard, and am well versed with the 'approaching the guard' scenario as I have to do it every time the office isn't open and I go to z1. 9 times out of 10 the admittedly friendly guards tell me that I have to go to the gateline at Waterloo (along with a fair few others). Sorry, it shouldn't be up to me to sort out...I can see that 10 years of hassle is on its way.

Well not quite. Isn't your child eligible for the child rate photocard (which caps at £1 I believe) and on trips beyond London, you yourself will need to queue up to purchase a Boundary Zone 6 to wherever ticket, so no extra fuss.

Or have I missed something?

 

[transmanche]

But the Netherlands has a simple, sensible and straightforward fares system.

Is that a good thing? Proponents of the British system might argue that having a complicated and silly fares system is preferable so that ticket offices will continue to be required.

As a passenger I'd far rather have a simpler fares system with a reduced need for ticket offices - and re-deploy staff to offer help/information/reassuring presence elsewhere in the station.

 

[Spirit]

Well not quite. Isn't your child eligible for the child rate photocard (which caps at £1 I believe) and on trips beyond London, you yourself will need to queue up to purchase a Boundary Zone 6 to wherever ticket, so no extra fuss.

Or have I missed something?

My apologies as I wasn't clear. I have a (paper) travelcard which is zones 3-6 plus my journey out of the London fare zones, so no I don't have to queue and (as I'm out of London) don't have the ability to top in/out etc.

I guess this all sounds petty but every journey for 10 years being punctuated with this (as I say we use the train a fair amount) isn't exactly appealing-especially as I trying to fully pay my (and my son's) fare effectively and efficiently-and can't...

 

[Oscar]

As a passenger I'd far rather have a simpler fares system with a reduced need for ticket offices - and re-deploy staff to offer help/information/reassuring presence elsewhere in the station.

The Netherlands (like Switzerland) is a much smaller country than the UK and therefore it is understandable that Advances are not offered. However, I think that a system with only one type of single fare would not be effective for longer distance trips, as the single fare would be too expensive for many passengers (who would not mind giving up flexibility) while others would be ready to pay more. Moreover, I don't think we're at a stage where fully abolishing a peak/off-peak walk-up single/return differential would be a good idea either. The OV-Chipkaart may be good for the Netherlands but there are serious questions to be asked about implementing such a system in the UK.

 

[radamfi]

The Netherlands (like Switzerland) is a much smaller country than the UK and therefore it is understandable that Advances are not offered. However, I think that a system with only one type of single fare would not be effective for longer distance trips, as the single fare would be too expensive for many passengers (who would not mind giving up flexibility) while others would be ready to pay more. Moreover, I don't think we're at a stage where fully abolishing a peak/off-peak walk-up single/return differential would be a good idea either. The OV-Chipkaart may be good for the Netherlands but there are serious questions to be asked about implementing such a system in the UK.

However, you could say that the Netherlands and Switzerland actually do have peak/off-peak differentials as the Dutch 40% off card is only valid outside the morning and evening peaks, and the Swiss have a cheaper day ticket after 0900.

Advance-type fares are also available for longer distance journeys where traditional national borders are crossed, such as on Thalys, ICE and TGV. So the UK analogy would be having a simplified single fare for all journeys as well as Advance fares for longer distance journeys.

Actually, Germany is not too unlike that, where zonal fares apply within individual states and regular walk-up singles and Advance-type fares exist for longer journeys.

 

[MikeWh]

Have I got the situation right? You have a gold card season and are attempting to travel with your son on a journey fully covered by your gold card? I can see the frustration here. If there was another adult travelling then you could select the gold card rate for both adult and accompanying child(ren). I guess that in the majority of cases it will be a season ticket holder travelling with partner and child(ren). Your situation may be relatively unusual, but in this day and age it is becoming more common, for a multitude of reasons.

The problem from the TOCs point of view is that to make the £2 child ticket available on it's own from a machine would drastically reduce the revenue they collect. There isn't an easy way around this, short of changing the programming of the machine to somehow read the gold card ticket to validate issuing a stand-alone child ticket. It doesn't even seem possible to purchase this ticket online. When bought from a human (either ticket office or guard) the validity of the gold card can be checked.

To answer your original question, I would indeed be inclined to write. I wouldn't necessarily phrase it as a complaint, as such. But it is valid to ask if they agree that it is inconvenient not to be able to purchase the required tickets when the ticket office is closed, and is this really how they reward passengers who pay upfront for a year. Even suggest that the inconvenience makes you wonder whether it's worth travelling by train. If you make the letter as constructive as possible then it may at least cause the senior management to think. Indeed if you don't get at least a sympathetic response from customer services, acknowledging your situation, I would then write direct to the man at the top.

I would stress though that you shouldn't feel any worry or nervousness about travelling without a ticket for your son. If there is no open ticket office then there genuinely is no opportunity to buy. You absolutely are entitled to travel and pay on board or at the end.

 

[Oscar]

You have a gold card season and are attempting to travel with your son on a journey fully covered by your gold card?

TVMs can certainly be built to read cards with a magnetic strip but obviously this could not be introduced in this case in the short term.

However, you could say that the Netherlands and Switzerland actually do have peak/off-peak differentials as the Dutch 40% off card is only valid outside the morning and evening peaks, and the Swiss have a cheaper day ticket after 0900.

Advance-type fares are also available for longer distance journeys where traditional national borders are crossed, such as on Thalys, ICE and TGV. So the UK analogy would be having a simplified single fare for all journeys as well as Advance fares for longer distance journeys.

Actually, Germany is not too unlike that, where zonal fares apply within individual states and regular walk-up singles and Advance-type fares exist for longer journeys.

That may be an improvement but the Germans do also complain about an over-complex fare system and there still issues with ticket purchase e.g. Verkehrsverbund tickets only be available from TVMs within the Verkehrsverbund area, photocards for Verkehrsverbünde only being available in person or certain offers such as the Prag-Spezial not being available online. I do agree though that many flows particularly outside of major centres could benefit from having just one affordable single fare.

 

[Spirit]

Have I got the situation right? You have a gold card season and are attempting to travel with your son on a journey fully covered by your gold card? I can see the frustration here. If there was another adult travelling then you could select the gold card rate for both adult and accompanying child(ren). I guess that in the majority of cases it will be a season ticket holder travelling with partner and child(ren). Your situation may be relatively unusual, but in this day and age it is becoming more common, for a multitude of reasons.

The problem from the TOCs point of view is that to make the £2 child ticket available on it's own from a machine would drastically reduce the revenue they collect. There isn't an easy way around this, short of changing the programming of the machine to somehow read the gold card ticket to validate issuing a stand-alone child ticket. It doesn't even seem possible to purchase this ticket online. When bought from a human (either ticket office or guard) the validity of the gold card can be checked.

To answer your original question, I would indeed be inclined to write. I wouldn't necessarily phrase it as a complaint, as such. But it is valid to ask if they agree that it is inconvenient not to be able to purchase the required tickets when the ticket office is closed, and is this really how they reward passengers who pay upfront for a year. Even suggest that the inconvenience makes you wonder whether it's worth travelling by train. If you make the letter as constructive as possible then it may at least cause the senior management to think. Indeed if you don't get at least a sympathetic response from customer services, acknowledging your situation, I would then write direct to the man at the top.

I would stress though that you shouldn't feel any worry or nervousness about travelling without a ticket for your son. If there is no open ticket office then there genuinely is no opportunity to buy. You absolutely are entitled to travel and pay on board or at the end.

You have hit the nail on the head here (and understood what i'm trying to do). Thanks for the response. I'm not sure if I feel any worry or not - yes I know I'm 100% in the right, but-for example-I believe the letter of the rules are that I have to approach the guard at the earliest opportunity to try and buy a ticket. And 1 day i'm going to end up at my destination and meet somebody who's told me I haven't followed the rules, I know it.

The answers have been illuminating, and i will confess to not appreciating the extent of probable fraud. I may write, but we're all busy and tbh i can't see it helping.

 

[34D]

My apologies as I wasn't clear. I have a (paper) travelcard which is zones 3-6 plus my journey out of the London fare zones, so no I don't have to queue and (as I'm out of London) don't have the ability to top in/out etc.

I guess this all sounds petty but every journey for 10 years being punctuated with this (as I say we use the train a fair amount) isn't exactly appealing-especially as I trying to fully pay my (and my son's) fare effectively and efficiently-and can't...

Ah, you have an out-boundary travelcard, something like Basingstoke to Zone R3456. In that case, I fully understand the concern.

 

[Stigy]

The reason that type of ticket is not available on the TVMs is the same reason staff cannot purchase priv tickets from them either. It is to prevent misuse, if the ticket office is closed then you are more than entitled to approach the guard on the train and explain the situation and request the ticket you require.

I see your point, but you could say that about any of the discounts that ARE available at a TVM, and remove them all, surely?

 

[Monty]

I see your point, but you could say that about any of the discounts that ARE available at a TVM, and remove them all, surely?

The child rate discount that is available for gold card holders and the 75% rate for staff rate travel is considerably less than the 34% offered in the other various railcard schemes. I'm not saying it's write or wrong, just the way it is and why.

What I can see happening in the future is things like Goldcards, Priv Passes, YP cards being loaded onto ITSO smartcards and all a passenger will have to do is swipe their card over a reader on the TVM for the relevant discount to be applied.