I wasted £8 today

[Urban Gateline]

If there is a gateline in operation you just tell them which train you are boarding (e.g. at York station when races are on if I am getting GC, I tell them that and they let me through).

However they can watch which platforms you walk to and if you happen to go to where a non buy on board TOC operates from you may be asked to step back onto the concourse and buy a ticket first!

 

[PR1Berske]

Thank you for the varied responses

The point I was (trying to) make came from the many topics on this subject about ticket checks generally. I journey a lot to Manchester and would never think of not buying a ticket - there's almost always on board checks and there's always gates.

As someone says in this thread, a journey like Preston to Lancaster is "under the radar". We could open the discussion up to question why this is, or whether this will always be the case.

The title of this thread was a little provocative, I admit. But it's worth opening up the discussion, is it not?

 

[NSEFAN]

We could open the discussion up to question why this is, or whether this will always be the case.

Unless we start putting multiple revenue inspectors on trains (which does occasionally happen when RPIs are deployed, I believe!), there probably will always be cases where people travel without tickets and get away with it.

I feel that installing barriers at busier stations would help somewhat. They don't necessarily stop people travelling with incorrect tickets, but it's a good start.

 

[tbtc]

Unless we start putting multiple revenue inspectors on trains (which does occasionally happen when RPIs are deployed, I believe!), there probably will always be cases where people travel without tickets and get away with it.

I feel that installing barriers at busier stations would help somewhat. They don't necessarily stop people travelling with incorrect tickets, but it's a good start.

I agree with that - barriers do have their use (despite the majority on here seeming to dislike them).

Not necessarily an issue on the Virgin service the OP travelled on, but the fact that (despite BR rolling out DOO on a number of services) we've seen very little conversion to DOO since privatisation (only things like Bathgate - Edinburgh) means we still have Guards operating doors and "concentrating on train safety" means ticket collection is a distant third in terms of their priorities.

 

[M60lad]

Non ticket checking by staff isn't just confined to Virgin Trains though, I've been on countless Northern Rail trains and the odd Trans Pennine Express and not had my ticket checked although I've always had one

Infact since the Northern have strengthened quite a few of their services into/outoff Manchester for anyone wanting a free ride its easier now as the train conductor now has to ride in the rearmost unit which means the only member of staff in the front unit is the driver so the travellers in the front unit won't get a ticket check

 

[Squaddie]

The point I was (trying to) make came from the many topics on this subject about ticket checks generally. I journey a lot to Manchester and would never think of not buying a ticket - there's almost always on board checks and there's always gates.

But, again, you give the impression that you buy a ticket only because you think you would be caught if you didn't, not because you think it is the right thing to do.

If you knew that there would definitely not be an on-board check, would you buy a ticket?

 

[ATW Alex 101]

My best mate moaned at mersyerail that they never check tickets so he decided not to buy one and the one time he didn't buy one the guard came round checking tickets and he go a £20 fine. He always makes sure he buys a ticket.

The amount of times I have brought a ticket and not had it checked is unreal. If I could claim money back on all tickets I have brought and not been checked I would be a millionaire

 

[Oswyntail]

I understand entirely the point the OP is making, and, to an extent, agree. The problem with any rule enforcement is to balance effectiveness with convenience and cost. TOCs could guarantee every passenger held a ticket if (as an extreme) every passenger was accompanied by an official with an electronic key card at every point of their journey from ticket office to final destination. So all other options involve a compromise. The key to the compromise is effectiveness, increasing the chance that a traveller without a ticket will be caught. Barriers, including manned gates, can be effective, but are not infallible - the equivalent of fixed speed cameras on the roads. IMHO, more effective is the random ticket inspection, if carried out frequently enough, always creating the fear in the naughty traveller that they will be caught but they cannot predict where - the travelling speed camera. OK, this means that some journeys will not have checks. It's a compromise.

 

[wintonian]

I don't understand the issue? There is no requirement to be in possession of a ticket at any gateline if you are boarding a train that the Train Operator is happy to sell tickets on board. If there is a gateline in operation you just tell them which train you are boarding (e.g. at York station when races are on if I am getting GC, I tell them that and they let me through).

Buy on board services like GC is not something I am familiar with, although I am aware of the concept, in fact I rarely use Kings Cross or anywhere else where such an operator (Euston/ Paddington excepted) calls.

 

[transmanche]

As someone says in this thread, a journey like Preston to Lancaster is "under the radar". We could open the discussion up to question why this is, or whether this will always be the case.

The title of this thread was a little provocative, I admit. But it's worth opening up the discussion, is it not?

Someone in another thread a few months back mentioned lax ticket checking on East Coast. Since then I've been keeping a mental note of whether my ticket was checked or not.

In the last three months I have made 13 journeys on East Coast. 10 of those journeys were London-Newcastle (or vice versa). I've only had my ticket checked on three occasions.

Now I can understand why tickets cannot always be checked on short journeys (such as Preston to Lancaster) - but I am puzzled why my ticket hasn't been checked between Newcastle and London.

 

[Darandio]

Now I can understand why tickets cannot always be checked on short journeys (such as Preston to Lancaster) - but I am puzzled why my ticket hasn't been checked between Newcastle and London.

I imagine that they are just trusting that the barriers are doing their job.

Since the barriers were introduced, even between Darlington and Newcastle I now rarely have my ticket checked. Before that, it was a regular occurence.

 

[neilmc]

Non ticket checking by staff isn't just confined to Virgin Trains though, I've been on countless Northern Rail trains and the odd Trans Pennine Express and not had my ticket checked although I've always had one

Infact since the Northern have strengthened quite a few of their services into/outoff Manchester for anyone wanting a free ride its easier now as the train conductor now has to ride in the rearmost unit which means the only member of staff in the front unit is the driver so the travellers in the front unit won't get a ticket check

At Victoria on the Caldervale line platforms I've always seen temporary manned barriers and quite a few people paying on arrival.

Be warned though, they also play the entrapment game as evidenced on other threads whereby you can't buy a ticket at a small suburban station, they don't or can't sell you one on the train and a revenue inspector subsequently asks you a question about whether or not you'd have walked out of the station without paying.

 

[transmanche]

Now I can understand why tickets cannot always be checked on short journeys (such as Preston to Lancaster) - but I am puzzled why my ticket hasn't been checked between Newcastle and London.

I imagine that they are just trusting that the barriers are doing their job.

Since the barriers were introduced, even between Darlington and Newcastle I now rarely have my ticket checked. Before that, it was a regular occurence.

However on about half the journeys I made, the barriers were open at both Kings Cross and Newcastle!

 

[Jeremy B]

Mrs B & myself were on an EC train yesterday & the ticket man was checking everyone's ticket between Darlington & York in our coach at least. Some grumbles were overheard from the passengers seated behind us that they already had their ticket checked but he insisted they did get them out. Who checked this from Newcastle then I heard him ask as its only me doing them & I don't see any stamp. Silence followed by a thank you from the guard before he moved onto check the people opposite. Makes you wonder.........

 

[wintonian]

At Victoria on the Caldervale line platforms I've always seen temporary manned barriers and quite a few people paying on arrival.

Be warned though, they also play the entrapment game as evidenced on other threads whereby you can't buy a ticket at a small suburban station, they don't or can't sell you one on the train and a revenue inspector subsequently asks you a question about whether or not you'd have walked out of the station without paying.

Although I don't believe that entrapment itself is a defence it can be used in mitigation and can also be seen as an abuse of process by the courts. This could be considered by anyone who believes they may have been 'invited' in such a way to break the law.

Mrs B & myself were on an EC train yesterday & the ticket man was checking everyone's ticket between Darlington & York in our coach at least. Some grumbles were overheard from the passengers seated behind us that they already had their ticket checked but he insisted they did get them out. Who checked this from Newcastle then I heard him ask as its only me doing them & I don't see any stamp. Silence followed by a thank you from the guard before he moved onto check the people opposite. Makes you wonder.........

I find my tickets rarely get stamped or squiggled these days.

 

[sheff1]

In the last three months I have made 13 journeys on East Coast. 10 of those journeys were London-Newcastle (or vice versa). I've only had my ticket checked on three occasions.

Twice in the last week I have travelled Doncaster - Kings Cross and back and no on train checks have been made. On arrival at, and departure from Kings Cross, the barriers were locked open .............. Oh dear, it seems I have wasted my money !

Of course I haven't, as I received the service I had purchased at a price I considered to be fair.

 

[transmanche]

In the last three months I have made 13 journeys on East Coast. 10 of those journeys were London-Newcastle (or vice versa). I've only had my ticket checked on three occasions.

Twice in the last week I have travelled Doncaster - Kings Cross and back and no on train checks have been made. On arrival at, and departure from Kings Cross, the barriers were locked open .............. Oh dear, it seems I have wasted my money !

Of course I haven't, as I received the service I had purchased at a price I considered to be fair.

I hope by quoting from my earlier post that you're not trying to imply that I felt I was 'wasting' my money? As an honest fare-paying passenger, I do get annoyed that chancers get away without paying especially if my fares increases more to make up for the lost revenue.

Which is the reason I'm puzzled why tickets aren't checked at all, on a journey between Newcastle and London.

 

[irongecko]

I wasted about £20 in Tesco today because I could have walked out without paying.

 

[neilmc]

Maybe ticket checks are lax on these long-distance journeys from the North of England to London because the cost of the Anytime ticket you would be made to buy if found without a ticket (apart from any other nasty consequences) is tantamount to a large fine, especially if you're travelling off-peak.

And if you're not travelling off-peak, chances are that a business is picking up the tab anyway, so why risk it?

 

[yorkie]

Which is the reason I'm puzzled why tickets aren't checked at all, on a journey between Newcastle and London.

What was the guard doing the whole time?

If the answer is "I don't know" then you don't know tickets were not checked at all .... unless you had a friend in every carriage of the train?

 

[sheff1]

I hope by quoting from my earlier post that you're not trying to imply that I felt I was 'wasting' my money?

Not at all, I was just trying to endorse your observation about the lack of checks on EC. Apologies if that was not clear.

It may be a coincidence, but it seems that the checks in and out of Kings Cross are far less frequent now the barriers have been installed at KX. This despite the fact that, when I travel at least, the barriers seem to be locked open more often than they are in use.

 

[transmanche]

What was the guard doing the whole time?

If the answer is "I don't know" then you don't know tickets were not checked at all .... unless you had a friend in every carriage of the train?

On ten journeys? Nearly all them between London and Newcastle? The guard was too busy to make it to coach E? Seriously? Come off it!

 

[snail]

My thoughts about the Preston-Lancaster return, having made that journey many times.

1. If it's a day return you have to avoid ticket checks in both directions to 'profit', as there's only 20p difference between the single and return fares.

2. I've had my ticket checked many times on Virgin but more often southbound than the other way.

3. TPE are much more likely to carry out checks.

4. I take the train, I pay the fare. Simple.

 

[12CSVT]

Someone in another thread a few months back mentioned lax ticket checking on East Coast. Since then I've been keeping a mental note of whether my ticket was checked or not.

Travelled from Kings Cross to Leeds on Sunday, and didn't have my ticket gripped once (apart from the barriers at Leeds), despite repeated on-train announcements that 'a full ticket check is about to take place'.

 

[34D]

At Victoria on the Caldervale line platforms I've always seen temporary manned barriers and quite a few people paying on arrival.

Be warned though, they also play the entrapment game as evidenced on other threads whereby you can't buy a ticket at a small suburban station, they don't or can't sell you one on the train and a revenue inspector subsequently asks you a question about whether or not you'd have walked out of the station without paying.

And this is the problem.

Northern must either decide: to continue with this 'pay at the main station' culture or to install ticket offices and tvms at its stations and then justifiably penalise passengers without a ticket.

In northern-land, it should be possible to put the full range of tickets on machines (although it isn't at present) by adding the various PTE products.

Again, smartcards would deal with a lot of this sort of thing, but northern seem to be at the back of the queue here.

 

[Sammy h]

I work at Lancaster and we had a big revenue check for three days last week. RPI's here for over eight hours every day.

The look on some peoples faces as they strolled through the booking office to see the RPI's was priceless. The amount of additional revenue made was astonishing.

As said earlier the Lancaster - Crewe corridor is a play ground for these fare dodgers. I don't know how true it is, but I am led to believe that Northern get the majority of the Lancaster - Preston fare?

Hopefully when the franchise is sorted the barriers will be up and we wont have this problem

 

[yorkie]

...I don't know how true it is, but I am led to believe that Northern get the majority of the Lancaster - Preston fare?...

No, fares distribution is through ORCATS (plenty of threads about it here) which is timetable-driven. Looking at the timetable, Virgin should get the majority of the revenue.

 

[M60lad]

While we're on about ticket dodging one area that hasn't been mentioned where it is and can be rife is on Rail Replacements as on quite a few I've travelled on organised by First Rail Support I've just been ushured onto the right vehicle without a check being maid and when showing a ticket to the driver he/she just says nothing to do with me that.

Also there's nothing to say on Rail Replacements that you can't buy a ticket to one destination and get off further than you anticipated, I'm just going off experience

 

[90019]

and when showing a ticket to the driver he/she just says nothing to do with me that.

Thing is, a bus driver is hardly likely to know, let alone care, if your ticket is valid or not.

 

[wintonian]

I haven't met an RPI when boarding an replacement bus for around 10 years, it used to be quite common until then from someone from SWT to either check tickets as people board or appear somewhere along route and walk up and down the bus checking them. mind you it also used to be quite common then to see blocks on a stations large and small, something I also can't recall seeing for some years now the RPI has been replaced by an electronic barrier at larger ones.