Routeing check Keighley - London return via Nottingham?

[Deerfold]

Hi,

Just looking for confirmation - I have checked the routeing guide and it looks OK but I'd like to check -especially as I'm advising my wife!

On an upcoming Monday my wife will take the direct train from Keighley to London Kings Cross at approx 0705.

On the following Thursday, early afternoon, she'll return. She'd like to come back via Nottingham so we can see a band there, breaking her journey there and then continuing the next day. Annoyingly she'll probably be about an hour after the train I've got an dvance on.

She'll probably have an Anytime Return (which her work is paying for) though if anyone can suggest a reasonably simple alternative feel free. She doesn't want advances as her northbound journey will follow a flight

Down is no problem (direct train, probably also shortest route).

Back up I think it's ok by Map SY to Leeds with doubling back through Beeston being OK as it's part of Nottingham Group.

 

[bb21]

Doubling back via Beeston and Attenborough is fine as they are both members of Nottingham Group, however Nottingham - Leeds does not normally involve doubling back through these two places unless on the once-daily Northern service via Toton and the once-daily Northern service via Derby.

The right-most curve of the three between Nottingham and Chesterfield on map SY does not involve doubling back through any station.

You are correct that map SY permits the route proposed.

 

[The Colonel]

I can remember getting the through trains from St Pancras to Skipton, reverse at Nottingham & Leeds and a Class 45 all the way, and the wheeltappers at Leeds. Those were the days!

 

[34D]

I can remember getting the through trains from St Pancras to Skipton, reverse at Nottingham & Leeds and a Class 45 all the way, and the wheeltappers at Leeds. Those were the days!

That's a service which could be interesting if reintroduced. In the 60s it was a few st Panc-Glasgow each way, dropped to (I think) two each way, then just Glasgow-Nottingham, then separate Carlisle-Leeds (still loco) and Leeds-Nottingham (class 150) before the latter was stopped altogether in the late 80s, but recently reintroduced as about the only bit of expansion Northern has done.

Lots of memories here of Leeds station being full of peaks, 47s, 31s and the odd whistler: happy days.

To the op: your wife should have no problem getting an itinerary with a reservation st panc-nottingham (which would be a sensible reservation as presumably that journey will be fairly busy if its the afternoon peak).

 

[John @ home]

She'll probably have an Anytime Return (which her work is paying for) though if anyone can suggest a reasonably simple alternative feel free.

I know that some businesses insist on Return tickets, but in this instance Singles save £13.40.

Keighley - London Terminals route Any Permitted: Standard Anytime Return (SOR) £257

Keighley - London Terminals route Any Permitted: Standard Anytime Single (SOS) £128.50
London Terminals - Nottingham route Any Permitted: Standard Anytime Single (SOS) £74.50
Nottingham - Keighley route Via Sheffield: Standard Off-Peak Single (SVS) £40.60 Restriction BT (By any train except those scheduled to depart before 0430 Mon-Fri.)
Total £243.60

 

[TUC]

I know that some businesses insist on Return tickets, but in this instance Singles save £13.40.

Keighley - London Terminals route Any Permitted: Standard Anytime Return (SOR) £257

Keighley - London Terminals route Any Permitted: Standard Anytime Single (SOS) £128.50
London Terminals - Nottingham route Any Permitted: Standard Anytime Single (SOS) £74.50
Nottingham - Keighley route Via Sheffield: Standard Off-Peak Single (SVS) £40.60 Restriction BT (By any train except those scheduled to depart before 0430 Mon-Fri.)
Total £243.60

Is that final restriction correct? The number of trains before 0430 on that route will be tiny. What's the point of the restriction at all in this case?

 

[John @ home]

Is that final restriction correct?

Yes. See Restriction BT.

The number of trains before 0430 on that route will be tiny.

The number of trains leaving Nottingham before 0430 Mon-Fri is a little less than that!

What's the point of the restriction at all in this case?

It's part of what the train companies like to call Fares Simplification, which was introduced because

Customer feedback suggested that it isn’t always easy to find the best value ticket to match their needs because of the range of ticket names and different fares available.

The new fare names simplify the choice for customers, allowing them to choose their rail tickets with more confidence.

http://www.atoctravelagents.org/cli...il Brief - Phase 2 - Travel Agents 290708.pdf

On 7 September 2008, the Standard Saver Single became the Off-Peak Single. Prior to that date, a large number of Savers had no time restrictions, and this was indicated in the fares manual by Restriction 8A (Valid outward and return by any train. No break of outward journey).

For these Savers with no time restrictions, after Fares Simplification,

• ATW and TPE Savers retained Restriction 8A.
• Northern renamed their Savers as Anytime tickets.
• EMT introduced Restriction BT (By any train except those scheduled to depart before 0430 Mon-Fri).
• EC introduced Restriction 8E (Valid outward by any train except those timed to depart Mon-Fri 0115 - 0400, return by any train. Break of journey permitted). ... etc.

 

[Paul Kelly]

Is that final restriction correct? The number of trains before 0430 on that route will be tiny. What's the point of the restriction at all in this case?

I guess you can think of it as a "placeholder", to allow time restrictions to be sneakily introduced at a later date. Really such non-time-restricted Savers should have been renamed to Anytime at the time of fares simplification (only Northern did this).

Keeping them as Off-Peak with a restriction code that currently means they are valid any time leaves the door open for the TOC concerned to sneakily introduce time restrictions at a later date simply by changing the restriction code (such as CrossCountry recently did by changing their long-distance Off-Peak Returns from an 8A to a 2V, in the process making some journeys impossible to complete in one day). If they had been properly simplified and renamed to Anytime, then this wouldn't have been possible.

 

[calc7]

It also allows an inflated Anytime fare to be charged, where appropriate, to those boarding without a ticket when they had the opportunity to purchase beforehand.

 

[bb21]

(such as CrossCountry recently did by changing their long-distance Off-Peak Returns from an 8A to a 2V, in the process making some journeys impossible to complete in one day).

Even worse than that. They were Restriction 8X rather than 8A, with no break of journey restriction in either direction.

Although it did mean that the Manchester Stns - Bournemouth ticket would have been invalid on the 0511 departure.