They are normally very punctual (within five minutes at most and normally on time) and I would normally allow ten minutes for a connection which, whilst longer than the Swiss, isn't exactly a long time.
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Why are connections not held? (a rant)
- Thread starter Oswyntail
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They are normally very punctual (within five minutes at most and normally on time) and I would normally allow ten minutes for a connection which, whilst longer than the Swiss, isn't exactly a long time.
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RailUK Forums
what do you class as frequent? I would say at least hourly. I accept that if there is another train an hour later, then one waits. It is interesting to note that changes in franchises in the East Midlands have seen the growth of XC which has meant that towns like Loughbough which used to have direct services to Brum , now require a change at Leicester. The fastest connection to Liverpool on a Saturday means using EMT,XC and LM . They all connect well but if XC from Stansted is late (10minutes) then it adds another 40 minutes to journey. The point I'm making is that connections for many people are quite good but there is a lack of joined up thinking when it comes to servicing the needs of passengers on last trains or trains with longer connection waits.
If you have to wait an hour between connections, or expect an hour delay if you miss a connection, then not many people who have a car available are going to make that trip by train.
I recall when I used to commute on the single-track line between Oxford and Charlbury. In the evenings, my train out of Charlbury would be held if the busier train from London was delayed and had missed its 'slot' on the single track. The delayed busier train always seemed to get priority, even if it meant holding back and delaying a service that was running on time.
Presumably FGW worked out that paying out for a major delay for a handful of passengers was cheaper than for a minor delay for a trainful of passengers. It was rather irritating to me
Presumably FGW worked out that paying out for a major delay for a handful of passengers was cheaper than for a minor delay for a trainful of passengers. It was rather irritating to me
It's not a customer services industry.
It's a transport one. Going along the thought trail you made, you could call every industry a customer service one as there isn't any business sector that I can think of that doesn't have some sort of customer.
But as others have probably stated, 200 people delayed or just 5. I know which one I would choose.
It's all about regulation too. Again as others have touched on if a train is running 15 mins late but one is on time, they will delay the on time train as both services will make charter and technically be "on time" at their destination.
WelshBluebird
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Out of curiosity, where / by who is a decision to hold a service made?
Is it always by the higher ups, or if a TM / guard sees people running from a late incoming service can they hold their train for a minute or so?
Is it always by the higher ups, or if a TM / guard sees people running from a late incoming service can they hold their train for a minute or so?
The key word is "services". The transport industry (unlike manufacturing) does not produce anything for its customers, but provides a service - that is its product. Therefore it is a "customer services" industry - much as some within it would like to pretend that customers are not the be all and end all.
The Planner
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Not entirely sure how you have worked that out. If one is a local service then it misses PPM if it is 5 minutes late, long distance 10. If one is already 15 late and has little chance of recovering 6 minutes to get it back as a non failure then it highly doubtful they will jeapordise the on time service.
ex-railwayman
Member
May I enquire on the types of trains you are talking about from your post, if it's a 1/2 car DMU against an HST, then, the HST will ALWAYS get priority, and it's been like that since B.R. days, I appreciate nowadays that the reporting codes have changed, but, years ago a 2/3 car MU/DMU local pax service operated under a 2 headcode, a mainline HST or 10 coach pax service had a 1 headcode timed to run faster than a local and given priority, however, times have now changed to quite a few more single branchlines than in decades gone by, and of course we now have single coach passenger workings, Class 153, for example, I suppose it's the bigger the train the bigger the delay factor that governs signalling operatives and train management.
The other thing of course, is that a Class 1 passenger train could run at speeds in excess of 100 mph, years ago no DMU could ever reach that speed and were given a class 2 headcode accordingly, nowadays, DMU's can go faster, Class 170 for example has a top speed of 100mph and therefore operate under class 1 regulations.
In reply to the OP, I presume if we are talking about only a 1 minute delay, it would appear bizarre that any connecting services are not held, even if it is a different TOC, but, as has been the general case ever since privatisation and was pointed out by Jimini, the general response is, hard luck it isn't one of our trains that's been delayed, you'll have to wait for the next one, which has been the biggest frustration factor since all TOC's were formed.
Cheerz. ex-railwayman.
Class 1 regulations? There's no difference between class 1 and 2 passenger trains as far as the Rules & Regs are concerned. Even when considering a class 1 HST against a class 2 Sprinter, all sorts of factors including stopping patterns, recovery time and other trains need to be considered rather than automatically giving priority to the HST (which certainly doesn't always happen, as claimed)
Cherry_Picker
Established Member
A lot more trains run today than did under BR though, and therefore headways are a lot tighter than they used to be and comparisons of how it used to work are simply not valid.
If a train is held for, say, three minutes for a connection at point A then it might lose it's path through a junction further up the line and lose more time there which means it gets stuck behind a stopping service at point B and get delayed even further. A three minute delay can quickly become ten or fifteen and of course then passengers who were already on the train might miss their connections unless their trains are held and before you know it the whole thing could come crashing down. Better to run things to the timetable where possible.
Of course there is the argument that the timetables should be geared towards better connections (and I think on the whole they do pretty well) but in the places where you see poor connections if you step back and look at the reasons why the train has to leave a minute before something else arrives then there is usually something there with regards to pathing elsewhere on the route. It's little comfort to point out to somebody who has just missed a train that there is a bigger picture to consider, but that doesnt make it less true. As ever, the railway is probably the best example in life of how it is literally impossible to please all of the people all of the time.
blacknight
Member
PPM is the answer to your question lucky if you get 2 minute hold these days. Due to nature of fractured franchise system original delay down to points failure so delay belongs to NR who then would be reluctant to accept any further minutes delay from service startting at Newark.
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If only it was that simple
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There's nothing a Delay Attribution clerk likes more than a nice juicy incident that they can dump a load of delays onto.
Something as "simple" as an incident of cable theft on the "old road" at Beighton (between Sheffield and Chesterfield for those who don't know it) can thus have a delay between Exeter and Barnstaple attributed to it due to the ripple effect of a CrossCountry service being delayed between Doncaster and Sheffield, which then delays a Transpennine between Sheffield and Stockport, delaying another CrossCountry between Stockport and Birmingham...and so on.
Furthest North I've managed to get a root cause so far was a stopping train between High Wycombe and Marylebone being delayed due to the fire alarms going off at Lancaster...
Cheers,
Barry
MattRobinson
Member
Wow, that seems a bit excessive. Would be fun to have a go at: passenger delayed train in Scotland, can we get that to affect trains in Cornwall?
Who has to pay if it's caused by vandalism (like cable theft) or by a passenger (like someone pulling the communication cord)?
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Who has to pay if it's caused by vandalism (like cable theft) or by a passenger (like someone pulling the communication cord)?
Sent from my Nexus 7 using Tapatalk 2
12CSVT
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If it is the 0820 Aberdeen to Penzance that gets held up (for example, a late start from Aberdeen then loses its path en route) then, yes, it is possible.
Whilst not as far south as Cornwall there are quite a few possibilities for disruption in Scotland causing issues towards London as the Sleepers could have an impact so to could East Coasts Aberdeen/Inverness services (the reverse is also true with these services).
Cherry_Picker
Established Member
It doesnt even have to be as simplistic as that. A local train in Scotland can delay an Intercity train on the ECML, which in turn can delay something crossing the Pennines, which can in turn delay something headed up the WCML, which, well you get the idea. It's a ripple effect and a short delay on one train can cause delays on several other trains hundreds of miles away and hours later.
blacknight
Member
There's nothing a Delay Attribution clerk likes more than a nice juicy incident that they can dump a load of delays onto.
What ever float your boat-could always try working for aliving
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