New London Midland timetable

[London_Midland]

Thank you for the informative response. I hope you consider removing the Northampton easement in its entirety (for both northbound and southbound journeys), as the reason for introducing it will no longer be applicable when the new timetable begins.

Sorry, yes, that's what I meant!

 

[IanD]

Just as an aside, there will be some fare increases on tickets to London from January, but off-peak prices will only change by a couple of pounds, which we hope you agree is pretty good value for a round trip saving of almost an hour.

I seem to recall that you've just recently increased off-peak fares to London so it may only be 'a couple of pounds' in this January's increase but it will be more than 'a couple of pounds' since last January's increase.

 

[Tomonthetrain]

p.s. Only 350/1s will be allowed on the Trent Valley fast services from December due to the 110mph running, so that is another bit of good news!

Great. Looks like Birmingham gets lumped with the 350/2s. Why not go the whole hog and give us 321s! Or even 2 car 150s!

 

[YorkshireBear]

Great. Looks like Birmingham gets lumped with the 350/2s. Why not go the whole hog and give us 321s!

you can have the 321s if you wish. Id love a few 350s in yorkshire!

 

[Tomonthetrain]

Great. Looks like Birmingham gets lumped with the 350/2s. Why not go the whole hog and give us 321s!

you can have the 321s if you wish. Id love a few 350s in yorkshire!

Anything that means I don't have to do the hurdles to get into the next carriage because of the minute gangway

 

[telstarbox]

Even TOCs put on a couple of pounds over Christmas On a more serious note, well done to LM for the detailed and informative post above.

 

[A0]

p.s. Only 350/1s will be allowed on the Trent Valley fast services from December due to the 110mph running, so that is another bit of good news!

Not if you travel from Northampton it isn't - it means once again Northampton's being downgraded to having virtually all services using cramped and uncomfortable 3+2 seated units.

This compares very badly with either Wellingborough which sees fully 2+2 seating or other destinations a similar distance from London e.g. Peterborough or Cambridge - where the 365s give 2+2 seating.

Would you like to elaborate what Northampton is actually gaining from the 'Project 110' timetable as once again we seem to be getting the thin end of the wedge.

 

[bILLOO]

Will the Crewe/Birmingham trains that attached at Northampton just become 4 car from Birmingham all the way to London (and visa versa) once the TV trains no longer call at Northampton?

EDIT: As above poster has asked; what are Northampton passengers getting from this?

 

[All Line Rover]

Minor fare rises are inevitable each year. Providing the Super-Off-Peak and Off-Peak Returns do not rise above £30 and £40 respectively, LM's fares will continue to remain competitive, especially if their Advance ticket prices, which allow very cheap travel during Virgin's ridiculous 'peak' periods remain at similar levels.

 

[Qwerty133]

Will the Crewe/Birmingham trains that attached at Northampton just become 4 car from Birmingham all the way to London (and visa versa) once the TV trains no longer call at Northampton?

EDIT: As above poster has asked; what are Northampton passengers getting from this?

You're services won't be delayed due to problems on the Trent valley line and you will have less uncertainty on what subclass will be operating the services. (Almost all 350/2s)

 

[A0]

London Midland's new December timetable appears to ruin northbound journeys from Northampton. For example, Northampton to Manchester is currently around 2h14m (changing at Stoke on Trent) but from December becomes 2h43m (with a change at Birmingham).

That problem is being caused by the NR booking engine putting a 20 minute connection in at Rugby e.g.

the TV stopper leaves Rugby at xx.42

NMP - RUG services are

xx.55 (NMP) - xx.17 (RUG)
xx.16 (NMP) - xx.38 (RUG)
xx.25 (NMP) - xx.47 (RUG)

For some reason the NR engine is suggesting using the xx.55 from NMP if you want to travel to intermediate stations on the TV line, which means waiting at Rugby for over 20 mins, yet if you get the next train from NMP you have a 4 minute connection at Rugby.

Have to say the spacing of the northbounds from NMP is pretty poor given this is a recast timetable - it's pretty absurd to have a spacing of 11>9>30 mins - there really should be some kind of effort to make it a more even 20>20>20 split.

 

[87015]

For some reason the NR engine is suggesting using the xx.55 from NMP if you want to travel to intermediate stations on the TV line, which means waiting at Rugby for over 20 mins, yet if you get the next train from NMP you have a 4 minute connection at Rugby.

The 4 minute connection at Rugby isn't legal - hence the journey planners will have to put you on the earlier one and if you risk the +4 and miss (and LM have no connectional policy) you have no comeback.
I'd even say thats intentional - it really wouldn't be difficult to put a -1 differential on the arrival time at Rug from Northampton making the connection legal.

LM have never given a toss about the captive market that has no choice but to use their services, its all about the giant ORCATS raid under the guise of competition. No doubt the usual move of putting captive market tickets up at a higher rate will continue to go on as well.

 

[The Planner]

Have to say the spacing of the northbounds from NMP is pretty poor given this is a recast timetable - it's pretty absurd to have a spacing of 11>9>30 mins - there really should be some kind of effort to make it a more even 20>20>20 split.

Unless you have a uniform stopping pattern across the board down the Cov corridor that isn't possible and if you did you would knacker the EBWs.

 

[bILLOO]

Northampton will just always be a London commuter town in the railway's eyes; therefore 3+2 seated trains providing semi-fast and stopping services seem to be the acceptable services provided for the town.

 

[IanD]

Minor fare rises are inevitable each year.

More accurately, minor fare rises are inevitable several times each year. A number of minor fare rises over a year make a major fare rise. As the Scottishland people say "Many a mickle macks a muckle."

 

[A0]

The 4 minute connection at Rugby isn't legal - hence the journey planners will have to put you on the earlier one and if you risk the +4 and miss (and LM have no connectional policy) you have no comeback.
I'd even say thats intentional - it really wouldn't be difficult to put a -1 differential on the arrival time at Rug from Northampton making the connection legal.

LM have never given a toss about the captive market that has no choice but to use their services, its all about the giant ORCATS raid under the guise of competition. No doubt the usual move of putting captive market tickets up at a higher rate will continue to go on as well.

I have to say I thought from the 'Project 110' documentation they were meant to be ensuring sensible connections at Rugby so as to limit the extended journey time impact on Northampton - on this basis it doesn't seem to have happened.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

You're services won't be delayed due to problems on the Trent valley line and you will have less uncertainty on what subclass will be operating the services. (Almost all 350/2s)

I don't think that's offering Northampton's rail users anything of any real value, do you?

There's just as much likelihood of delays on services emanating from Birmingham as there is from the TV line and virtually all services will be formed of cramped and uncomfortable 3+2 seated units.

Really poor when compared to other destinations of a similar size and distance from London e.g. Colchester, Cambridge, Peterboro, Reading....

 

[Qwerty133]

I don't think that's offering Northampton's rail users anything of any real value, do you?

There's just as much likelihood of delays on services emanating from Birmingham as there is from the TV line and virtually all services will be formed of cramped and uncomfortable 3+2 seated units.

Really poor when compared to other destinations of a similar size and distance from London e.g. Colchester, Cambridge, Peterboro, Reading....

Of course I don't, he asked what the benefits would be and I answered with the only slight benefits.

 

[bILLOO]

Of course I don't, he asked what the benefits would be and I answered with the only slight benefits.

Well, there are no benefits. And if the Birmingham train that is currently coupled to a Crewe service at Northampton doesn't gain these extra carriages anymore, Northampton will then also lose capacity.

Northampton has never really had a great service for the size of the town, but that's what you get for being on a loop line with an abysmal line speed. Do other towns such as Worcester and Weston Super Mare suffer from the same problems being situated on a loop line?

 

[TEW]

Do other towns such as Worcester and Weston Super Mare suffer from the same problems being situated on a loop line?

Yes. Cross Country by pass both (Weston gets a few XC services) as they are on loops, when chances are they'd call if they were on the mainline.

 

[calc7]

One could say the same about Bradford (W Yorks) - a city on the slow Manchester line rather than the premium line via Huddersfield.

 

[Eagle]

Do other towns such as Worcester and Weston Super Mare suffer from the same problems being situated on a loop line?

WSM suffers, it's basically all local stoppers, with a handful of longer-distance services on FGW and one or two on XC.

Worcester does okay, mainly because other lines join the loop line rather than it being isolated. Kind of like Redhill.

 

[A0]

Well, there are no benefits. And if the Birmingham train that is currently coupled to a Crewe service at Northampton doesn't gain these extra carriages anymore, Northampton will then also lose capacity.

Northampton has never really had a great service for the size of the town, but that's what you get for being on a loop line with an abysmal line speed. Do other towns such as Worcester and Weston Super Mare suffer from the same problems being situated on a loop line?

Northampton's double the size of either of those - and indeed bigger than most of the others I quoted.

LM seem to be hitting Northampton particularly hard just when we started getting a half decent service.

 

[Qwerty133]

Northampton's double the size of either of those - and indeed bigger than most of the others I quoted.

LM seem to be hitting Northampton particularly hard just when we started getting a half decent service.

Worcester (shrub hill and forgate street combined) has very similar passengers numbers to Northampton.b

 

[MK Tom]

Northampton's double the size of either of those - and indeed bigger than most of the others I quoted.

LM seem to be hitting Northampton particularly hard just when we started getting a half decent service.

Agreed. What's needed to change that is a full upgrade of the line between Northampton and Rugby to 100mph running (or even 110), which should have been part of the WCML upgrade. Then it won't be a detriment to other towns to take that route like it is at present.

I hope something comes of the long-term aspiration to use Hitatchi Express units on a Northampton-MKC-Euston intercity service.

 

[IrishDave]

Have to say the spacing of the northbounds from NMP is pretty poor given this is a recast timetable - it's pretty absurd to have a spacing of 11>9>30 mins - there really should be some kind of effort to make it a more even 20>20>20 split.

A more even split would be wonderful, but the "obvious" move of putting the xx25 northbound out of Northampton to xx35 would, I'm told, knacker the standard freight path through Coventry, hence why it currently runs xx25 and then stands at Coventry for 13 minutes in platform 4.

 

[London_Midland]

I seem to recall that you've just recently increased off-peak fares to London so it may only be 'a couple of pounds' in this January's increase but it will be more than 'a couple of pounds' since last January's increase.

That's correct, but prices still very low (and Advance fares remaining unchanged).
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

Great. Looks like Birmingham gets lumped with the 350/2s. Why not go the whole hog and give us 321s! Or even 2 car 150s!

Birmingham already gets mostly /2s. Crewe trains - in the main - supposed to be /1s already. Situation should not deteriorate as some Birminghams need flexibility of 110mph operation.

 

[Tomonthetrain]

Its not fun having to continually do the hurdles to get though packed coaches on the /2s. Why couldn't you have specified 2x2 seating on them like the /1s.

 

[London_Midland]

Thanks for the additional comments.

The aim of the project 110 timetable is to speed up journey times and increase capacity on the WCML south of Milton Keynes where we have major crowding at peak times but no more 100mph paths. It's an innovative scheme that enables us to run a xx46 and xx49 from Euston, which in due course has the potential to increase capacity on fast services to Milton Keynes by up to 800 seats per hour. As majority of Trent Valley traffic is to London and journey time is already very long, it therefore makes sense for the Crewe trains to avoid going via Rugby. However, the increased capacity by running at 110mph means that Northampton retains its 3 trains per hour with some speed improvements.

We have 30 class 350/1s, so even if all Liverpool-Birmingham and all Crewe-London services are in their hands, that still leaves a significant number for other services and we will obviously try to focus these on the longer distance trains where possible.

One of the other benefits of the scheme is that it becomes faster to change at Rugby when heading to London from Birmingham on certain departures, and that will free up capacity on the Birmingham-London service travelling via Northampton. Rugby-London will also have a cheaper direct route to London without the need to go via Northampton, again freeing up capacity for Northampton.

The ORCATS question is an interesting one since we will still be overtaken en route by VT and earn virtually nothing from the Any Permitted flow on Birmingham-London where we last introduced enhancements. The vast majority of our revenue comes from London Midland only fares, and this will remain the case since. The only difference is that more people will buy such tickets. In the peak - until 2014 at least - the IC West Coast operator will be providing the peak service when Any Permitted tickets will be the norm.

During the peak with the current fleet we cannot run trains via Weedon without decreasing the frequency to Northampton, so we have abandoned that idea. However, when we received our 10 x class 350/3s (which will be 2+2 configuration), we will be able to run via Weedon and via Northampton in the peak, which will increase capacity between London and Milton Keynes, whilst freeing space on Northampton trains that currently have a high number of Trent Valley customers on board.

It seems a little unfair to suggest that LM has shown a lack of interest in Northampton. We've increased the frequency between Birmingham and Northampton from 1 train per hour to 3 trains per hour since we took over in 2007, introduced Advance fares and replaced the 321s with brand new trains. Whether you like the 3+2 configuration or not, which of course is as per the 321s they replaced, passenger feedback consistently rates them far higher than 321s and only marginally lower than 350/1s. In an ideal world, we would have liked to have been able to specify the 2+2 layout for the whole fleet, but that simply didn't meet the DfT's specification on capacity. We haven't had that constraint with the 350/3s which is why they will have 2+2 (thus increasing the proportion of such units in the fleet).

Wellingborough is lucky in that it has an HST service to London, but passengers also pay dearly for it. It costs £37 more than travelling from Northampton in the peak and £34 more in the off-peak.

The idea that we have deliberately broken connections from Northampton at Rugby seems a little strange. The timetable has been through a number of iterations, however, and it is just possible that this has slipped in. We'll see what we can do to resolve that as it serves no purpose from a customer viewpoint.

Finally, in terms of capacity, there will be fewer 8 car trains during the day from Northampton to London, but this should be offset, in the main, by capacity being freed up by the new Weedon services. However, as one of the fastest growing TOCs in the UK, we are constantly reviewing passenger loadings and will target extra resources where there are needed. 8 car trains on the Trent Valley and the possibility of splitting at Rugby are also being looked into.

I hope that helps clarify some of the elements of the new timetable. There should be more background available online as we approach the timetable change.

David
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

A more even split would be wonderful, but the "obvious" move of putting the xx25 northbound out of Northampton to xx35 would, I'm told, knacker the standard freight path through Coventry, hence why it currently runs xx25 and then stands at Coventry for 13 minutes in platform 4.

That's correct - the 20/20/20 pattern isn't possible to protect a strategic freight path. As a result our train sits at Coventry for some time (although conveniently connects into a VT into Birmingham).

 

[Cletus]

Although I do not live in a part of the country covered by LM, I find having official comments from them very interesting & informative.
It would good to see other TOC’s following their example.

 

[Cherry_Picker]

Great. Looks like Birmingham gets lumped with the 350/2s. Why not go the whole hog and give us 321s! Or even 2 car 150s!

Birmingham also gets extremely frequent Pendolinos, 168s and MkIII coaches to London. While they are not operated by LM, pretending they dont exist isnt really fair either. You have plenty of options if you want to travel between the capital and the second city, on route, price, journey time and comfort of seat. Significantly more options than anywhere else actually, so try not to sound to hard done by.