First will not take over West Coast from December

[HH]

What is that supposed to mean

It means that there are more, and better paid, railway staff than there were before privatisation.

 

[KBD1]

Secretary of State for Transport, Patrick McLoughlin MP, and the Permanent Secretary at the Department for Transport, Philip Rutnam summoned to appear before the Transport Select Committee on 31st October at 2.45pm. They say that by that date they expect to be presented with the Governments internal review of what went wrong and how much it will cost taxpayers.

Thats Halloween sorted then :P I bet Greening is glad she got forcibly removed from the job as it could have snowballed into a resignation level cockup, shes so lucky as International Development Secretary shes not even in the country at the moment! Villiers is in Northern Ireland and also safely out of the way.

Hope it may be on Parliment Live

 

[Manchester77]

http://m.guardian.co.uk/uk/2012/oct/03/virgin-rail-west-coast?cat=uk&type=article
Guardian tweeted just now

 

[KBD1]

It means that there are more, and better paid, railway staff than there were before privatisation.

I would not say more, other than part time staff in which 75% are not union members if i recall
Better paid staff, are the upper managers of the TOC,s or IMC,s, not us lowly staff members, from my experience.

 

[jon0844]

http://m.guardian.co.uk/uk/2012/oct/03/virgin-rail-west-coast?cat=uk&type=article
Guardian tweeted just now

A FCC train? Surely a FGW one would have been more appropriate?

Still, readers will think FCC=bad and Virgin=great.

 

[HH]

I would not say more, other than part time staff in which 75% are not union members if i recall
Better paid staff, are the upper managers of the TOC,s or IMC,s, not us lowly staff members, from my experience.

I'm pretty confident that you are wrong on both counts - there are considerably more staff, even excluding part-time, and they are better paid, especially when you factor in that a lot more pay is pensionable than it used to be.

That's not to say that some staff aren't still poorly paid, but few are worse off than they would be outside rail in similar jobs.

 

[LNW-GW Joint]

Only 2 out of the 4 went forward to the final stage.

No, all four did full bids in May.
It was only later that the review concentrated on VT and First, and then just First. Abellio and Keolis/SNCF were never officially eliminated.
DfT will have to pay for all four full bids.
(And the court case, and all the consultants, and the partial startup costs).
I think £40m is the lowest it will come in at.
A big chunk of this will be for Network Rail who had to support all the bids.

 

[GNER 91128]

Just watched C4 news on the TiVo some great analyses on the situation by faisal Islam and Jon Snow. Although I am biased. I do love C4 news.

 

[HH]

No, all four did full bids in May.
It was only later that the review concentrated on VT and First, and then just First. Abellio and Keolis/SNCF were never officially eliminated.
DfT will have to pay for all four full bids.
(And the court case, and all the consultants, and the partial startup costs).
I think £40m is the lowest it will come in at.
A big chunk of this will be for Network Rail who had to support all the bids.

Didn't VRG say they spent in excess of £14m, and that was before they incurred lawyer's fees and the expense of Branson flying back for TSCs...

Possibly there are some rules around what is liable to be reimbursed, because otherwise £40m seems too low.

 

[Manchester77]

A FCC train? Surely a FGW one would have been more appropriate?

Still, readers will think FCC=bad and Virgin=great.

I know or even just a close up on the first logo would have been addiquet

 

[tbtc]

All fixed term contracts have been extended to 31st March 2013 following talks with First West Coast. Even though they're no longer taking over the WCML the contract extensions still stand.

Cheers - hard to sort the facts from the froth on this thread

So Beardy Branson has got his own way again.

But I can't say I'm not overjoyed by the result. Although as time goes on I find myself disliking the entire Virgin brand more and more, I'm happy the desision has been overturned and they've managed to hold onto it for the time being.

From what I gathered they apear to be doing a pretty decent job over on the West Coast, so why change operator? I found it surprising that First would win the contract when from what I've also gatherd they apear to be going a little down hill in the south there.

First's rail operations seem pretty decent at the moment (in terms of what they can control, like having to run 1970s trains on the GWML), so I'm not sure about your "down hill" comment.

Why change operator? Because Virgin have a contract which expires in December - not an open ended guarantee to milk the WCML.

The 'caretaker' franchise of GA was really a waste of time/money in my opinion. We'd have been better served to just go for either an extension of NXEAs franchise temporarily or just go straight for the full franchise competition, rather than faffing around.

Totally agree. I hope that this was just because of fear about the Olympics and not a sign of franchise lengths in the future!

I would not say more, other than part time staff in which 75% are not union members if i recall
Better paid staff, are the upper managers of the TOC,s or IMC,s, not us lowly staff members, from my experience.

Virgin Drivers were supposedly one pay rise away from £60,000, which isn't too shabby. Most Drivers at other TOCs are in the 40% tax bracket. Crow's men and women have done well from privatisation - however much he'd hate to admit it.

 

[Manchester77]

They would still need to go through the full franchising process to do it. It might not be as complex and long winded as a fifteen year franchise competition but it will still take a while to do. The 'caretaker' franchise of GA was really a waste of time/money in my opinion. We'd have been better served to just go for either an extension of NXEAs franchise temporarily or just go straight for the full franchise competition, rather than faffing around.

I know its off topic but why did they do a caretaker franchise instead of going straight into the big one?

 

[John55]

No, all four did full bids in May.
It was only later that the review concentrated on VT and First, and then just First. Abellio and Keolis/SNCF were never officially eliminated.
DfT will have to pay for all four full bids.
(And the court case, and all the consultants, and the partial startup costs).
I think £40m is the lowest it will come in at.
A big chunk of this will be for Network Rail who had to support all the bids.

Yes quite right in the formal process there were indeed 4 bidders in the final stage.

I was forgetting the DfT & bidder leak machinery which lets the press and us know what is happening is an informal process.

 

[HH]

http://www.channel4.com/news/west-coast-main-line-virgin-firstgroup-rail-branson/?99

The video bit is from Faisal Islam, mentioned above.

 

[507 001]

The population of the UK is 60 milion-plus. Since when have 173,999 signatures been the vast majority of 60-million plus? Hysterical, over-the-top remarks have characterised this whole episode and posts like yours are sadly typical.

And for all those posting here about how Virgin have heroically exposed the flawed franchising process, ask yourselves this - would Sir Richard have felt moved to expose those flaws if he had been named the winner, given that the franchising process is an utter lottery anyway? Something I'm sure Virgin were well aware of before they lodged their bid but said nothing about, so as not to upset the DfT.

I too think the franchising system is a mess and should be replaced with something more akin to the London Overground and Merseyrail arrangements but can we please be spared any more of this stuff about Saint Richard? He ain't a saint

Sorry I worded that poorly, I meant to say that sir RB's cause was one that the vast majority of people seemed to support and that a not inconsiderable amount of people signed a petition in support.

Ask yourself this, if you were going for a job interview tomorrow, and you knew that there were "serious flaws in the selection process" would you speak out? Or would you keep quiet for fear that speaking up could ruin your chances of getting the job?

If Beardie had won, then of course he wouldn't have said anything A) because he'd won (obviously) and B) because the flaws in the system may not have been so obvious.

 

[tbtc]

I know its off topic but why did they do a caretaker franchise instead of going straight into the big one?

The Olympics (since the GA franchise was the main route through Stratford)?

Get someone in to manage the huge demand/ circumstances of the Olympics, then worry about a longer franchise once the dust has settled?

 

[KBD1]

I'm pretty confident that you are wrong on both counts - there are considerably more staff, even excluding part-time, and they are better paid, especially when you factor in that a lot more pay is pensionable than it used to be.

That's not to say that some staff aren't still poorly paid, but few are worse off than they would be outside rail in similar jobs.

I would slightly agree on both points, other than the pensionable staff.
From what i am led to belive, the many different railway companies have pension schemes, although some staff members can not contibute untill so many years of service, although this has recently changed, which is very poor compared to the original BR pension, in which i am thankfully a member

Regarding staff numbers, this is where i disagree, a fair number people on the railways are now PT or on temporary contracts including managers, with NR or other companies, in which most are NOT union members.

 

[ainsworth74]

The Olympics (since the GA franchise was the main route through Stratford)?

Get someone in to manage the huge demand/ circumstances of the Olympics, then worry about a longer franchise once the dust has settled?

That's my understanding, though of course the mini-franchise is now for over two years (so not really just the Olympics) and if the idea was to manage the Olympics smoothly, surely it would have been more logical to stick with NXEA and give them a franchise extension? The whole things strikes me as being odd.

 

[WatcherZero]

Newsnight, Chair of ATOC Tom Smith says in light of the petition in support of Virgin they would like to see Virgin given a extension until refranchising, Labour Maria Eagles calls for DOR operation as a step towards more examination of nationalisation.

 

[tbtc]

That's my understanding, though of course the mini-franchise is now for over two years (so not really just the Olympics) and if the idea was to manage the Olympics smoothly, surely it would have been more logical to stick with NXEA and give them a franchise extension? The whole things strikes me as being odd.

I agree with you, I can only offer the Olympics as a justification (though, as you say, they don't last for two years!).

The thing that worries me about today's WCML announcement is that the Government and TOCS are going to get cold feet about longer contracts (given the arguments about net present value of things in fifteen years time that nobody can predict, hence the "confusion" over who had the "best" bid etc), which is going to mean more shorter franchises.

Fine if the Government take the decisions on investment/ infrastructure/ new stock etc, but one of the reasons I favour longer franchises is to encourage TOCs to make these kind of forward looking decisions (which obviously GA won't have any incentive to do, given the short nature of their contract).

But then if the Government are going to take all the entrepreneurial decisions etc then what do we need TOCs for...

 

[HH]

From what i am led to belive, the many different railway companies have pension schemes, although some staff members can not contibute untill so many years of service, although this has recently changed, which is very poor compared to the original BR pension, in which i am thankfully a member

I don't know where you are talking about. Every franchise I know has a full, final salary pension open to all staff at the moment they join. I don't know all the franchises, but the vast majority I do.

Regarding staff numbers, this is where i disagree, a fair number people on the railways are now PT or on temporary contracts including managers, with NR or other companies, in which most are NOT union members.

A fair number are PT? That's a bit vague. Again I know details of quite a large number of franchises, and generally there is a low % of PT staff except in a few areas like catering. Certainly there are more than there used to be, but there are piles more staff in total than there used to be. Let me give an example - when FCC bid for its Franchise in 2005 there were 2046 FTEs across TL & GN. Current plans will see them hand over more than 2500 staff in 2013. There are not 500 PT staff in FCC.

 

[tbtc]

Every franchise I know has a full, final salary pension open to all staff at the moment they join. I don't know all the franchises, but the vast majority I do

How many other companies have that in 2012 for new starters?

Even the state schemes (Civil Service, NHS etc) are moving away from Final Salary - most private companies offer only money purchase schemes to new employees (and have for some time now). Yet rail staff complain about their conditions.

 

[LNW-GW Joint]

Newsnight, Chair of ATOC Tom Smith says in light of the petition in support of Virgin they would like to see Virgin given a extension until refranchising, Labour Maria Eagles calls for DOR operation as a step towards more examination of nationalisation.

You didn't mention Simon Burns who is supposed to be in charge of Rail Strategy at the DfT.
His input was feeble and seemed to be solely about avoiding ministerial blame.
Tom Smith at least knew his subject.
The earlier BBC journo seemed very muddled as well, and contradicted herself.
They find covering party political conferences much easier than the rail industry.

 

[KBD1]

I don't know where you are talking about. Every franchise I know has a full, final salary pension open to all staff at the moment they join. I don't know all the franchises, but the vast majority I do.


A fair number are PT? That's a bit vague. Again I know details of quite a large number of franchises, and generally there is a low % of PT staff except in a few areas like catering. Certainly there are more than there used to be, but there are piles more staff in total than there used to be. Let me give an example - when FCC bid for its Franchise in 2005 there were 2046 FTEs across TL & GN. Current plans will see them hand over more than 2500 staff in 2013. There are not 500 PT staff in FCC.

Final salary pension is now vary rare in this economic climate, fair enough if it is protected.
Good, that you quote these figures on the full time staff, although i have my doubts.
Hope it is this case

 

[HH]

How many other companies have that in 2012 for new starters?

Even the state schemes (Civil Service, NHS etc) are moving away from Final Salary - most private companies offer only money purchase schemes to new employees (and have for some time now). Yet rail staff complain about their conditions.

True, and it's why some peripheral tasks, like catering and cleaning, are always being considered for outsourcing. Even when you add the third party's profit margin in it can be cheaper.

It's not just Pension costs here though, the Ts & Cs usually make you pay more overtime than private companies would pay.

 

[Pumbaa]

I would not say more, other than part time staff in which 75% are not union members if i recall
Better paid staff, are the upper managers of the TOC,s or IMC,s, not us lowly staff members, from my experience.

Care to explain the 29% real term increase in staffing costs then since 1994?

 

[ainsworth74]

Care to explain the 29% real term increase in staffing costs then since 1994?

Fat cat managers?

 

[Pumbaa]

Fat cat managers?

I understand that top-level management was stripped out of the sums. But I can't check that unfortunately.

If anyone cares to know where that figures from, it's from a presentation delivered by the Rail Technology Research Group. Even then the data are now many years old, and I suspect the figure has gone up.

 

[IanXC]

Its been suggested a few times that the DfT and First both "made the same mistake" in some aspects of this.

I wonder whether First used the Department's model to ensure that they "showed the figures the Department wanted", whilst not necessarily agreeing with the methodology, and having modelled the same thing themselves internally for their own consideration.

 

[HH]

Fat cat managers?

Some managers have done very well compared to their salaries under BR, but unlike staff, there are a lot less of them.

Anyway, they are largely staff too, and most are promoted through the ranks.

The real reason is the continual RPI+ pay increases that rail staff have been getting for the last 15 years (not to mention productivity deals where the productivity never seems to happen).

Let's just take the last three years as an example. The Average Wage Index has been increasing at around RPI-2% or less. Rail Pay has been increasing by somewhere between RPI+0.5% to RPI+1% based on all the deals that I've seen.

In other words for three years running Rail has been 3% better off than the general populace. Against some groups, like local government (no increase at all for two years), the divergence is much greater. Guess what increases would have been paid under BR?