Should public transport be free?

[northwichcat]

Just out of interest, how would the Llanelli services be classified? Many of them travel quite long distances, but carry a lot of local passengers who travel only a few stops.

Also, how far would or should I be able to travel for free, when setting out from Llanelli?

Swansea to Pembroke Dock - Local
Manchester to South Wales - Regional
Carmarthen to Paddington - Intercity

The HOW line is probably one of the most difficult lines to classify. Given how much slower it is for end-to-end journeys compared to the Manchester to South Wales service I'm tempted to just say 'local' despite the distance as really it's a long local service as it doesn't even have a semi-fast stopping pattern.

The maximum distance that you can travel on a regional/intercity in the absence of a local service is of course something that's important. I think maybe a 35 mile rule should apply.

And just to be clear I'm saying how it could work not how it should work.

 

[gooner88]

Many a point has been raised but one of my thoughts on this does go to the taxation. But lets say everyone was to travel via public transport and because of free travel decide they no longer require cars. think of the impact that would have on the nation...... The drivers who would normally pay road tax, fuel duty and VAT for actually buying the car the loss alone of those would cut the national budget, and the roads will still need to be maintained for the buses so cant let them deteriorate. So as well as losing money you expect the government to then provide a service which costs them?!? Really?!? Not to mention would trains be as clean as they would be free would there be a need to have a acceptable level of tidiness?? And customer service staff would they be required?? Where would the line be drawn on what would be needed look at the Mcnulty report and that is with a paid for service.

I would however use the other side of the coin to mention things like advertising as a means of generating some form of revenue back into the system but i doubt anywhere need the amount to cover added costs :neutral:

 

[Greenback]

Many a point has been raised but one of my thoughts on this does go to the taxation. But lets say everyone was to travel via public transport and because of free travel decide they no longer require cars. think of the impact that would have on the nation...... The drivers who would normally pay road tax, fuel duty and VAT for actually buying the car the loss alone of those would cut the national budget, and the roads will still need to be maintained for the buses so cant let them deteriorate. So as well as losing money you expect the government to then provide a service which costs them?!? Really?!? Not to mention would trains be as clean as they would be free would there be a need to have a acceptable level of tidiness?? And customer service staff would they be required?? Where would the line be drawn on what would be needed look at the Mcnulty report and that is with a paid for service.

I would however use the other side of the coin to mention things like advertising as a means of generating some form of revenue back into the system but i doubt anywhere need the amount to cover added costs :neutral:

Hardly anyone is going to give up their car. It's simply not convenient enough to use public transport for every posisble journey, and even if it was, many people would still prefer to use their own car.

What might happen under your scenario is that more travel would be on public transport, providing greater profit/less subsidy for the private operators pf said transport. Also the roads will require less maintenance through lower use.

I'm afraid the situation is not as simple as your post would suggest!

 

[gooner88]

Hardly anyone is going to give up their car. It's simply not convenient enough to use public transport for every posisble journey, and even if it was, many people would still prefer to use their own car.

What might happen under your scenario is that more travel would be on public transport, providing greater profit/less subsidy for the private operators pf said transport. Also the roads will require less maintenance through lower use.

I'm afraid the situation is not as simple as your post would suggest!

Yeah while I agree that people will keep cars as for some it will be hard not to for example im sure taking a caravan with you on the train may be hard, of course there is many others who will keep cars you have to remember the budget the nation has, is already at a point we are needing to cut costs on public spending so even a 10% reduction of revenue received by road users taxes would need recouping from somewhere surely?? and then to expect to increase public spending too??

And agreed the roads may need less maintenance but more buses may be required to serve normally quieter routes could even out the normal daily use anyway. But again with even a small lose of potential revenue they will need to recover this so any loss would/could not be justified for it imo

 

[Xenophon PCDGS]

I see that this thread has been running for some time and wonder how the proposals in the original thread would apply to non-car users who might desert their buses where these might be running in competition with free rail services in the larger towns and cities, where rail could therefore offer a distinct cost advantage in addition to a time saving in journey times to and from travel-to-work areas.

 

[Greenback]

Yeah while I agree that people will keep cars as for some it will be hard not to for example im sure taking a caravan with you on the train may be hard, of course there is many others who will keep cars you have to remember the budget the nation has, is already at a point we are needing to cut costs on public spending so even a 10% reduction of revenue received by road users taxes would need recouping from somewhere surely?? and then to expect to increase public spending too??

As petrol prices rise, it may be that revenue from road users will fall overall. Or it may be that adjustments to the tax on fuel, road tax or a host of other measures may be taken to mitigate the loss. I'm not a finance expert, so I can't say for definite, but the loss of revenue from one specific sector may not be that relevant when looking at the overall tax income. It's a bit like reducing the rate of income tax while increasing NI contributions - all smoke and mirrors!

 

[Holly]

The problem is not funding. The problem is the Tragedy of The Commons.

That is to say, if a shared (or public) resource is free to use then it is vulnerable to waste and abuse. People will travel needlessly, and for reasons as trivial as avoiding paying for heating the house. Or, indeed, rising out of homelessness.

Things that are needed however (reflecting the railway as a service rather than a cash cow):
(1) A simplified fare structure. One so simple that most people are able to understand it and are neither penalised for an inability to plan ahead nor rewarded for gaming the system.
(2) A classless society. As Harry Perkins said "Abolish second class (standard class) train coaches because we are all first class people you see.". The existence of First Class accommodation is a strong disincentive to improving standard class accommodation. Watch it improve quickly when no-one can buy privilege over other fellows.

 

[EM2]

(2) A classless society. As Harry Perkins said "Abolish second class (standard class) train coaches because we are all first class people you see.". The existence of First Class accommodation is a strong disincentive to improving standard class accommodation. Watch it improve quickly when no-one can buy privilege over other fellows.

I travel on Greater Anglia Metro services, which have no First Class. The trains are over thirty years old, and haven't been refurbished since 2004. The seat covers are in poor condition, the seat cushions are uncomfortable, I doubt they've seen a deep clean in over five years, there's graffitti scratched into the windows, they barely get cleaned during the day.
Supposedly, GA are due to 'refresh' them, and while some have been painted externally, I've seen no changes inside.

 

[northwichcat]

I travel on Greater Anglia Metro services, which have no First Class. The trains are over thirty years old, and haven't been refurbished since 2004.

Would you prefer to have a 142 or a 150 that have never had a full refurbishment and have the original seats?

 

[kylemore]

People are their own worst enemies - they will abuse the system.

The whole history of the British welfare state and council housing illustrates this.

It's a bit like "casting Pearls before swine", until people as a whole evolve a bit it does'nt work as various attempts to introduce socialism have shown.

 

[SS4]

The problem is not funding. The problem is the Tragedy of The Commons.

That is to say, if a shared (or public) resource is free to use then it is vulnerable to waste and abuse. People will travel needlessly, and for reasons as trivial as avoiding paying for heating the house. Or, indeed, rising out of homelessness.

Things that are needed however (reflecting the railway as a service rather than a cash cow):
(1) A simplified fare structure. One so simple that most people are able to understand it and are neither penalised for an inability to plan ahead nor rewarded for gaming the system.
(2) A classless society. As Harry Perkins said "Abolish second class (standard class) train coaches because we are all first class people you see.". The existence of First Class accommodation is a strong disincentive to improving standard class accommodation. Watch it improve quickly when no-one can buy privilege over other fellows.

(1) - Be careful what you wish for. Would you like to see all Advances and Super Off Peaks eliminated and be left with Off-Peak and Anytime? Why not "simplify" restriction codes like XC and simply bar off peak travel before 0930 across the country? Of course to go a long distance enjoy losing half a day of your holiday or pay double what you used to.

Seem harsh? Definitely but that's the sort of simplification you'll get. Better the devil you know!

(2) I wouldn't bank on it. First class fares subsidse standard fares so you'll find either standard fares rise and/or the trains get less non-safety maintenance. Of course some stock, like the Pendolino, go overboard with first class provision.

 

[EM2]

Would you prefer to have a 142 or a 150 that have never had a full refurbishment and have the original seats?

No, and it's another example which shows that Holly's point doesn't stand up.