First will not take over West Coast from December

[cj_1985]

well since we are watching the DfT get scrutinised... perhaps someone could point out the moronic decisions made by DfT about its pet IEP project to the scrutineers.

but on the main topic... fact is the next few days/weeks will be full of news, opinions, thoughts etc that will not give full and final facts just like during the period of Virgin throwing its toys out of its pram... where all we got was opinions, and "i heard XXXX from XXXX about XXX and its definetly XXX thats happening":roll:

take everything you hear with a very very large pinch of salt

 

[WatcherZero]

Anyone watching Daily Politics? The Conservative member of the Transport Select Committee who accused Branson of sour grapes is now saying he supported Branson all the way and never said Branson wasnt right. Hes also saying the issue thats been found was the back loading risk calculation and First should have been asked for £600m afterall.

 

[Zoe]

Anyone watching Daily Politics? The Conservative member of the Transport Select Committee who accused Branson of sour grapes is now saying he supported Branson all the way and never said Branson wasnt right. Hes also saying the issue thats been found was the back loading risk calculation and First should have been asked for £600m afterall.

So if the problem is simply that First's bid was too high for the bond they were asked for and that a higher bond should have been requested, could they not just review the bids and disqualify First's as too risky and award the franchise to Virgin? It would seem to be more than just that.

 

[WatcherZero]

No, any admission of flawed maths would mean the others could challenge the result too, their only option to avoid more lawsuits was to rerun the whole thing. Despite perception Virgin was aware this would be the result, they are banking on their bid winning second time around, they never expected to be just handed the franchise.

 

[Ferret]

And then we'll see taxes go up and Unions doing the strong arm tactics again

No thanks

The country couldn't afford - and certainly can't now thanks to 13 years of Labour misrule - nationalising the railways. It's as easy as that.

I partly agree, BUT we also can't afford the current system either - 50 million smackeroons of our money flushed down the bog thanks to Snivel Service incompetence.

 

[badger1badger]

No, it's not excellent news, for crying out loud

It shows the government are scared of upsetting public opinion (for some bizarre reason on this topic of all things) and/or are scared of Richard soddin' Branson.

If they were any kind of government, and I say this as a fully paid up card carrying Liberal Democrat for over 10 years, they wouldn't have got into this mess in the first place

A probable victory for Branson's bullying, I fear.

The system was flawed - and the government admitted that

Whether Richard or anyone else the system must work -

 

[aylesbury]

Sir Humphrey will be very embarrased by this, now the whole process should be reviewed and a different method of running trains found.Doubtless the RMT will demand a new BR but we have progressed beyond this .

 

[SkinnyDave]

well since we are watching the DfT get scrutinised... perhaps someone could point out the moronic decisions made by DfT about its pet IEP project to the scrutineers.

but on the main topic... fact is the next few days/weeks will be full of news, opinions, thoughts etc that will not give full and final facts just like during the period of Virgin throwing its toys out of its pram... where all we got was opinions, and "i heard XXXX from XXXX about XXX and its definetly XXX thats happening":roll:

take everything you hear with a very very large pinch of salt

Exactly how many skeletons are hiding in. The IEP closet ???

 

[Zoe]

No, any admission of flawed maths would mean the others could challenge the result too, their only option to avoid more lawsuits was to rerun the whole thing. Despite perception Virgin was aware this would be the result, they are banking on their bid winning second time around, they never expected to be just handed the franchise.

Would they really have to go right back to the start of the process though by placing a notice in the OJEU rather than just ask the fourt shortlisted bidders to resubmit? If it does go right back to the start then it's a possiblity that one or more of the current bidders wouldn't make the shortlist, leaving the potential for further legal action. If they did just ask the shortlisted bidders to resubmit though, they would need to be sure that the likes of DB would not be able to successfully argue that the entire process should be restarted.

 

[CC 72100]

Apologies if this has already been covered, but BBC Spotlight (Devon/Cornwall/Somerset) are reporting that the decision on the Great Western franchise will too be delayed as a result of the West Coast debacle.

 

[Zoe]

Apologies if this has already been covered, but BBC Spotlight (Devon/Cornwall/Somerset) are reporting that the decision on the Great Western franchise will too be delayed as a result of the West Coast debacle.

Yes, all franchise competitions are on hold.

 

[tbtc]

A few quick points:

• We heard a lot of complaints from members on here (plus the likes of Bob Crow) about how the change of operator was A Bad Thing because it meant that people with fixed term contracts which expired on 9 December 2012 were left in limbo not knowing whether they'd have a job on 10 December (this was true regardless of who won the franchise, of course, but you know Bob...). This announcement today leaves things even less certain, yet the same people don't seem to be complaining?
  
• Bad news for Blackpool, Shrewsbury, Bolton, Alstom (or other manufacturers), the taxpayer, rail staff etc as things are delayed further. Plus the knock on effects on any future franchises, any future investment on other lines, any strategy...
  
• I think I still stand by my previous claim that First had the better bid (but should have paid a higher "bond" to account for the "risk")
  
• How come people generally say that they want longer franchises (to encourage investment in a stable environment etc) but then complain about inflation assumptions being used for fifteen years time (since we can't possibly know future figures)? If you want long franchises, you have to accept this kind of risk.
  
• The cost of all this omnishambles is going to far outstrip the cost of repainting stations (which generally need a lick of paint anyway), yet people don't seem to be as bothered about the huge cost to the taxpayer. Odd.
  
• I'm not sure where First go, if they don't win the WCML franchise - selling off large chunks of their bus operation, existing train franchises expiring in the next couple of years, problems in the US... WCML seemed to be the one bit of good news on their horizon.

This is not a good day. All Branson has done is set a precedent so now if a company doesn't win a bid, they might as well launch legal challenges. This is going to cost the railway 10 or even 100 of millions of pounds which could be a lot better spent. I fear the worst

Agreed

All the bidders are getting their costs paid - £60m perhaps?
I guess the DfT will be forking out £100m for the impact of this, plus the knock-on delay to the refranchising programme.
First preparation costs will no doubt also get refunded. Luckily the rebranding hadn't started.

Alstom will be gnashing their teeth. They must have been expecting an order from the winner, and now have at least another year to wait...
And the good burgers of Shrewsbury and Blackpool etc will have to get out their lobbying kit again.

All franchise competitions are paused while they sort out the process

Depressingly accurate

Hysterical, over-the-top remarks have characterised this whole episode

True

I thought that too, the last thing we need in this country is YET MORE delays to introduction and therefore cascading of rolling stock we've had too much of that as it is over the past few years.

The IEP and Thameslink rolling stock orders are taking an age and then we have all the other canceled orders over the past few years and the network is at breaking point at the moment the last thing we need is further delays.

Correct

 

[cumfy]

So DfT jumped before they were pushed.

No judicial review, no dirty washing, no transparency.
Very convenient, Sir Humphrey.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---
I also wonder if the government knew about the errors and that the reshuffle last month was all choreographed around moving Justine Greening out of Transport before this announcement.

 

[Morgsie]

The DfT took this option to avoid humiliation in the Courts

 

[mirodo]

So DfT jumped before they were pushed.

No judicial review, no dirty washing, no transparency.
Very convenient, Sir Humphrey.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---
I also wonder if the government knew about the errors and that the reshuffle last month was all choreographed around moving Justine Greening out of Transport before this announcement.

I thought exactly the same.

 

[Whistler40145]

I think you're right cumfy.

 

[FManc]

A few quick points:

We heard a lot of complaints from members on here (plus the likes of Bob Crow) about how the change of operator was A Bad Thing because it meant that people with fixed term contracts which expired on 9 December 2012 were left in limbo not knowing whether they'd have a job on 10 December (this was true regardless of who won the franchise, of course, but you know Bob...). This announcement today leaves things even less certain, yet the same people don't seem to be complaining?

All fixed term contracts have been extended to 31st March 2013 following talks with First West Coast. Even though they're no longer taking over the WCML the contract extensions still stand.

 

[Class377/5]

That, as they say, is opening another can of worms..:roll:

And the ones to suffer are the passengers as usual.

 

[YorkshireRider]

The only reason the dft have owned up to this mess is because had it gone to court they would have lost, and they knew it! You can argue about whether Virgin could have gone about the whole thing better, but the fact they have done what they have done is a good thing for the future of all franchises. The cost to the taxpayer is nothing compared to what could have been lost come the back end of Firsts WC bid if they had walked away.

It only makes sense for DOR to take over if its going to be for a significant period of 18 months or more. The best bet is to ask Virgin to continue to run it, i know there are many on here who dont like Virgin and are in a sulk at the decision made last night but what about all the other franchises up for 2013? DOR take them all on? I doubt they could. Best bet is for DOR to continue at EC until well into 2014, that will give them some breathing space on one franchise up next year, and offer short term contracts to the current companies running the others. No point cutting off your nose to spite your face. No point the dft digging a bigger whole for themselves.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

The DfT took this option to avoid humiliation in the Courts

indeed

 

[Zoe]

I doubt they could. Best bet is for DOR to continue at EC until well into 2014, that will give them some breathing space on one franchise up next year, and offer short term contracts to the current companies running the others. No point cutting off your nose to spite your face. No point the dft digging a bigger whole for themselves.

There is an incentive to not let it drag on too long though into 2014 as any further delays could risk it getting too close to an election and possibly a change of government.

 

[Hazlehead]

How can it now be possible for any re tender to be fair but confidential when everyone now knows what First had planned in their bid? Surely other bidders will just pinch their ideas?

 

[Zoe]

How can it now be possible for any re tender to be fair but confidential when everyone now knows what First had planned in their bid? Surely other bidders will just pinch their ideas?

If it's a completely new franchising process then it's possible that some of the bidder's proposals like running a service to Blackpool could end up in the specification, requiring all bidders to include them.

 

[Gmac]

Any reason why DfT released at statement at midnight. Seems a bit strange they hoping we would sleep through the chaos.

 

[DXMachina]

Maybe it was because they knew the Press would monitor sites like this, and a midnight release allows some idea of the concensus of opinion among rail staff, enthusiasts and managers to come out before the main media coverage at breakfast time ?

 

[ainsworth74]

Yes, all franchise competitions are on hold.

Sorry, there's a lot to catch up on but what's the source for this?

 

[island]

Any reason why DfT released at statement at midnight. Seems a bit strange they hoping we would sleep through the chaos.

To avoid it getting in the papers, I suppose?

 

[Stats]

Sorry, there's a lot to catch up on but what's the source for this?

The DfT press release

Paused all the other outstanding franchise competitions (Great Western, Essex Thameside and Thameslink) pending the independent reviews which are designed to ensure future competitions are robust and deliver best value for passengers and tax payers.

 

[philjo]

To avoid it getting in the papers, I suppose?

That didn't work then as it was the main story on the front page of today's Times!

 

[Zoe]

Sorry, there's a lot to catch up on but what's the source for this?

http://www.dft.gov.uk/news/press-releases/dft-press-20121003a

Paused all the other outstanding franchise competitions (Great Western, Essex Thameside and Thameslink) pending the independent reviews which are designed to ensure future competitions are robust and deliver best value for passengers and tax payers.

The East Coast franchsie competition I believe was due to start next year and so it's possible this could end up delayed.

 

[WatcherZero]

Any reason why DfT released at statement at midnight. Seems a bit strange they hoping we would sleep through the chaos.

The cynics view was they were waiting till after the Labour conference Leaders Speech but before the court date.