e-Petition to hand expiring franchises to DOR

[joeykins82]

In light of the ICWC franchise tendering farce and the general feeling that the whole set up is designed to fleece the punters and the DfT I've posted up an e-Petition asking that as each of the TOC franchises expire they be handed to DOR, thus returning the operation of the principal rail services to a state-owned operator who'll run them as a service and not simply game the system to maximise profits.

http://epetitions.direct.gov.uk/petitions/39666

If you agree, please sign and perhaps share using whatever medium you deem fit. If you don't I'd love to hear why!

 

[PR1Berske]

Idealistic, socialist waffle.

 

[ushawk]

You may as well of just put "Bring Back British Rail".

 

[Arglwydd Golau]

Idealistic, socialist waffle.

I must say that you have a strange idea of what is 'socialist'!

 

[WillPS]

Signed.

 

[Xenophon PCDGS]

I hear the voice of Bob Crow somewhere in the background...:roll:

 

[Metroland]

The problem is DOR are not resourced for this. They are just handpicked people from the industry, apparently the DfT have been scouting around looking for people to run the WCML.

Again, the whole problem with privitisation has been railway training has just not been opened up enough. There are very few, if any, college courses on running a railway from the top to bottom. The same people get recycled over and over again, even with open access it's old railway people running these things.

DOR can only attract more people, who would be taken from other TOCs, by (most of the time) paying even bigger salaries. And so the gravy train goes on!

 

[cj_1985]

In light of the ICWC franchise tendering farce and the general feeling that the whole set up is designed to fleece the punters and the DfT I've posted up an e-Petition asking that as each of the TOC franchises expire they be handed to DOR, thus returning the operation of the principal rail services to a state-owned operator who'll run them as a service and not simply game the system to maximise profits.

http://epetitions.direct.gov.uk/petitions/39666

If you agree, please sign and perhaps share using whatever medium you deem fit. If you don't I'd love to hear why!

how is puting DOR in charge of each franchise going to help...
# no matter who is running services fares are going to keep rising/remaining at OTT rates.
# You are still going to have income from certain well performing franchises/sectors subsidising less efficient sectors... ie. Intercity service income being used to shore up short haul regional services ie. Northern
# Your still going to have the stock owned by ROSCOs which have to be paid for stock
not to mention countless other issues.

all this sh*t about wanting things to return to how they were up till the mid 90s is unrealistic... grow up and accept things have changed... bringing back BR isnt going to get rid of voyagers, or pendolinos or whatever else, and return to loco and stock operation

 

[Metroland]

That said I think there needs to be a debate (again) about the structure of the railways. A lot of people would like nationalisation, but it doesn't come without problems. I would suggest the biggest problem would be the Unions having too much power. But you could get around that with an independent body that sets conditions and pay. That would never suit Crow of course.

 

[cj_1985]

That said I think there needs to be a debate (again) about the structure of the railways. A lot of people would like nationalisation, but it doesn't come without problems. I would suggest the biggest problem would be the Unions having too much power. But you could get around that with an independent body that sets conditions and pay. That would never suit Crow of course.

like you say, nationalisation would have problems ...

the difference in pay across the network and many franchises , not to mention the different rates for staff in the same grade.

and then you have the issue about passenger vs railfreight... if you really want to be retro .. then you would have to renationalise the freight operations aswell... well atleast DBS and freightliner since the others didnt originate from BR freight sectors.

and if you decide to leave the FOCs alone.. your still going to have the same issue that we all know about now with TOCs and NR getting very cosy... and the potential ramifications that would have on freight operations across each TOC/regional areas.

as well as the existing Open access TOCs that would remain in place (atleast while they retain a track access agreement) while DOR or BR (or whatever you want to call it) takes over in a dominant position removing any semblance of competition on existing franchise services ie. the EC London to Glasgow/Edinburgh and the WC London to Glasgow/Edinburgh, or sections of what are now LM and FCC and the intercity services on their respective mainlines. (eg. LM and WC Euston to Birmingham New street)

 

[hippo1]

Bring back British Rail.
I'll second that.

 

[Zoe]

Currently we have a Tory led government which is not likely to support any nationalization. Even when Labour were in power, a motion was passed at the 2004 conference to not relet franchises as they expired but was overruled. I don't think this is likely at all.

 

[SS4]

not simply game the system to maximise profits.

No chance, that's pretty much the motto of the Conservative Party and the Labour Party for that matter

edit: It would be a good idea to nationalise the railways again but it would be done so poorly, by people with vested interests that only the paint jobs would be different and it's not implausible it would be deliberately mismanaged by government to bring back the current system/full privatisation.

We'd need a government of the left (good luck getting the Socialist party into power with our rigged voting system) to get it done properly.

 

[507 001]

In light of the ICWC franchise tendering farce and the general feeling that the whole set up is designed to fleece the punters and the DfT I've posted up an e-Petition asking that as each of the TOC franchises expire they be handed to DOR, thus returning the operation of the principal rail services to a state-owned operator who'll run them as a service and not simply game the system to maximise profits.

http://epetitions.direct.gov.uk/petitions/39666

If you agree, please sign and perhaps share using whatever medium you deem fit. If you don't I'd love to hear why!

how is puting DOR in charge of each franchise going to help...
# no matter who is running services fares are going to keep rising/remaining at OTT rates.
# You are still going to have income from certain well performing franchises/sectors subsidising less efficient sectors... ie. Intercity service income being used to shore up short haul regional services ie. Northern
# Your still going to have the stock owned by ROSCOs which have to be paid for stock
not to mention countless other issues.

all this sh*t about wanting things to return to how they were up till the mid 90s is unrealistic... grow up and accept things have changed... bringing back BR isnt going to get rid of voyagers, or pendolinos or whatever else, and return to loco and stock operation

I think you've missed the point. I don't think the argument is that returning to a nationalised system will halt the spread of EMU/DMU trains.
And if you look at it the petitioner isn't even arguing that we should return to the 90's. what we need is a new system of nationalisation that is tailored for the current railway operations.

 

[tbtc]

We really should just have a "nationalisation/ British Rail" megathread, since the same debate comes up over and over again

 

[cj_1985]

I think you've missed the point. I don't think the argument is that returning to a nationalised system will halt the spread of EMU/DMU trains.
And if you look at it the petitioner isn't even arguing that we should return to the 90's. what we need is a new system of nationalisation that is tailored for the current railway operations.

no, im well aware of that...
but try tell that to every person who mentions renationalisation... its not going to change the stock you travel on, its not going to change how much you pay for your ticket, or how many class 37s or 47 or whatever else are operating etc

far too many people look back on BR in a fond light, while forgetting or ignoring all of the negative issues that were well publicised during BRs heyday

renationalising the railways is not the solution that everyone seems to think it would be.

 

[Zoe]

We'd need a government of the left (good luck getting the Socialist party into power with our rigged voting system) to get it done properly.

The socialist party would form the government if they won a majority in the house. There's no rule requiring people to only vote Tory, Labour or LibDem but at the end of the day most people choose to. If people really want something different then they should vote for it rather than voting Labour to keep the Tories out or voting Tory to keep Labour out of power.

 

[PR1Berske]

Oh for goodness sake

Problems within the civil service and incompetence within a Government department should not be an excuse given by the lefty socialist wing of this forum to justify giving the railways to the government!

Nationalisation was a disaster and we can never go back.

 

[hippo1]

The Labour Party need to back Re Nationalization of the Railways.
As with the Privatized Utilitties, when things go wrong, like now (with rip off
prices). They just wash their hands of it.

 

[Zoe]

Nationalisation was a disaster and we can never go back.

So much of a disaster that it gave us the HST, the Intercity 225, ECML and WCML electrification and Thameslink to name just a few.

 

[joeykins82]

I'm not a doe-eyed sentimentalist wishing that we were living in the past; I'd like to see the positive improvements the railways have seen post-railtrack continue and indeed accelerate, and it's my belief that the best way this would happen is by keeping the revenue within the system instead of having FirstGroup, Stagecoach et al siphoning millions of pounds off the top. SouthEastern canned their boxing day services last year because they were in revenue support and even though they would have been profitable services to run they decided that they weren't profitable enough since 80% of the profits would go to the treasury. London Midland can't (or won't) keep their staffing level at a point where they can actually run the services which they're contracted to do. Virgin have extended their peak restrictions massively over the course of their franchise. Passing the essential services over to DOR to run directly or let out on a LOROL-style concessionary basis to an experienced TOC and then extending the number of open-access arrangements is a far more suitable private operation for our railways and one which better reflects where the real risks and real competition lies.

 

[cj_1985]

So much of a disaster that it gave us the HST, the Intercity 225, ECML and WCML electrification and Thameslink to name just a few.

so, your argument for justifying renationalisation is that BR gave us a handfull of goodies... while forgetting the under-investment in stock, stations, routes etc...

 

[SS4]

The socialist party would form the government if they won a majority in the house. There's no rule requiring people to only vote Tory, Labour or LibDem but at the end of the day most people choose to. If people really want something different then they should vote for it rather than voting Labour to keep the Tories out or voting Tory to keep Labour out of power.

True. Although I don't think they contest enough seats to get a majority. Politics is a game for the rich after all.

edit: perhaps I should have put "representative" in my previous post as a voting system, the left is getting ignored as at the moment all Labour need to is to be left of the Tories which is still right of centre.

Oh for goodness sake

Problems within the civil service and incompetence within a Government department should not be an excuse given by the lefty socialist wing of this forum to justify giving the railways to the government!

Nationalisation was a disaster and we can never go back.

Pray tell us how. The current system is nepotism on a massive scale with a whiff of corruption.

 

[Zoe]

while forgetting the under-investment in stock, stations, routes etc...

This doesn't mean that privatization was required.

 

[Lampshade]

Idealistic, socialist waffle.

Socialist?

I think people are just ****ed off with the inability of this government to do anything without making a royal **** up of it.

 

[Xenophon PCDGS]

We really should just have a "nationalisation/ British Rail" megathread, since the same debate comes up over and over again

There are new forum members joining us all the time to whom many of these threads are a current update on matters.

Was the same comment not made on this website in 2011 about the various "Pacer" threads prevailing that year being turned into a single "megathread"?

 

[PR1Berske]

so, your argument for justifying renationalisation is that BR gave us a handfull of goodies... while forgetting the under-investment in stock, stations, routes etc...

This^^^

 

[SS4]

There are new forum members joining us all the time to whom many of these threads are a current update on matters.

Was the same comment not made on this website in 2011 about the various "Pacer" threads prevailing that year being turned into a single "megathread"?

And even when a megathread is created (HS2) it's often ignored and new topics made anyway

 

[DarloRich]

Oh for goodness sake

Problems within the civil service and incompetence within a Government department should not be an excuse given by the lefty socialist wing of this forum to justify giving the railways to the government!

Nationalisation was a disaster and we can never go back.

and privatisation ( the way the government decided to do it) has been a roaring success?

Sorry for being a terrible pinko leftie commie stooge but i think certain items of national importance should be within the control of the government.

 

[joeykins82]

so, your argument for justifying renationalisation is that BR gave us a handfull of goodies... while forgetting the under-investment in stock, stations, routes etc...

If sectorised BR had the option of working with the treasury/DfT like NR does with its 5-year planning & budget cycles the under-investment of which you speak wouldn't have happened. The under-investment in stock/stations/routes paid for long-term strategic improvements to the network like Thameslink. We'd probably have had electrified GWML/MML/XC paid for by not having ****ed £6bn up the wall on a mostly-failed upgrade of the WCML had privatisation not intervened.