Eurostar to other destinations

[London_123]

Hi,

I read a while ago Eurostar were going to introduce new services to other European destinations from London such as Geneva sometime in 2012. Does anyone know of news about this project?

Thanks,

Chris

 

[Oscar]

Yes, the planned destinations currently also include Amsterdam, Rotterdam, Köln, Frankfurt, Lyon and Marseille. e320s which are currently being built and tested by Siemens in Germany will be used to run these services. The trains are due to be delivered in 2014 and the services should be running by 2016/2017. There is not a lot of public information about these new destinations unfortunately but I will be interested to learn about how the requirements for passport controls, security and isolated platforms will be carried out at stations like Köln Hbf and Genève-Cornavin where there is very limited capacity. I imagine that in some locations the set-up will be similar to the current Avignon/ski services.

 

[MCR247]

Apparantly the E320s may just run from Paris Nord with passengers taking a standard service to Paris and changing there :?

 

[Masbroughlad]

I hope there will be through services.

Also DB planning to run to St Pancras. Why not other European operators or independent open access for that matter?

 

[Eagle]

Why not other European operators or independent open access for that matter?

Well I don't think SNCF or SNCB would bother being as they already own stakes in Eurostar. Same goes for Thalys. The only operator I could see doing it would be NS, or perhaps Fyra (as any other companies are just too far away from Britain for it to be worth it).

 

[MCR247]

Trenitalia were looking into the ETR 1000s running to London IIRC

 

[JoeGJ1984]

Looking at seat61.com, it indicates that a high-speed line is being built that will enable direct high-speed trains between Paris and Barcelona (was expected December 2012 but now delayed until third quarter of 2013).

I presume this means that it would then be possible to go from London St Pancras to Barcelona entirely on high speed lines. I wonder if there is then any prospect of Eurostar or an independent open access operator to run direct trains from London St Pancras to Barcelona (which I think could well be popular with holidaymakers - I hope it does happen).

Given all the other destinations that are 'in the pipeline', I think it would be feasible to offer Barcelona as a destination from London St Pancras and could enable people to go on holiday by train.

 

[Yew]

I think the viability of barcelona would depend on how long, and how much it was compared to flying. I think it's possible, It may take little longer, but be more pleasant without silly restrictions, and cheaper due to no airline taxes.

 

[WestCoast]

The only operator I could see doing it would be NS, or perhaps Fyra (as any other companies are just too far away from Britain for it to be worth it).

Fyra is a partnership between NS Hispeed, KLM Royal Dutch Airlines and SNCB/NMBS.

NS would probably be interested in partnering with DB for London - Brussels - Amsterdam, in fact NS already own and operate some ICE3 sets for Amsterdam - Cologne - Frankfurt (-Basel).

 

[Bald Rick]

Looking at seat61.com, it indicates that a high-speed line is being built that will enable direct high-speed trains between Paris and Barcelona (was expected December 2012 but now delayed until third quarter of 2013).

I presume this means that it would then be possible to go from London St Pancras to Barcelona entirely on high speed lines. I wonder if there is then any prospect of Eurostar or an independent open access operator to run direct trains from London St Pancras to Barcelona (which I think could well be popular with holidaymakers - I hope it does happen).

Given all the other destinations that are 'in the pipeline', I think it would be feasible to offer Barcelona as a destination from London St Pancras and could enable people to go on holiday by train.

Not quite high speed all the way. The Montpellier bypass has only just started construction and won't be built for another 3-4 years. Beyond Montpellier it is the classique line to Perpignan, and the LGV for that section is at least a decade away.

So until then, a non-stop run London to Barca is going to be well over 8 hours. It might be fun to do it, but for the majority of the market it will be much cheaper and quicker to fly.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

I think the viability of barcelona would depend on how long, and how much it was compared to flying. I think it's possible, It may take little longer, but be more pleasant without silly restrictions, and cheaper due to no airline taxes.

Very unlikely to be cheaper by train to Barcelona on any like for like comparison.

 

[jopsuk]

Even with HS all the way, how long would London-Barcelona likely take? What's really needed for that sort of run is tunnel certified sleeper stock- and it doesn't even have to be UK "classic compatible"

 

[jon0844]

Sleeper services will definitely be the answer to taking the train to European destinations. Better use of the tunnel and rail network too, perhaps?

Even 10 or 11 hours to Barcelona will be nothing if you set off from St Pancras in the evening and arrive in the morning.. having saved a stupidly early/extra late trip (most likely with an extra night stay in a hotel) to an airport.

 

[kylemore]

Even with HS all the way, how long would London-Barcelona likely take? What's really needed for that sort of run is tunnel certified sleeper stock- and it doesn't even have to be UK "classic compatible"

Whats wrong with an overnight seated service - no need for tunnel certified sleepers which would probably take £100ms and years!
The skies above the atlantic are full of aircraft flying overnight and theres no shortage of punters willing to sit up all night. Indeed many holiday flights to Spain and the Canaries etc are more or less "overnight", people just adjust, ok you'll be a bit tired the second day but the excitement and good feeling of being on holiday and in the sun usually takes care of that!

 

[jopsuk]

Overnight seated services already exist in the winter, Eurostar to Bourg Saint Maurice. Leaves St Pancras 1931 on Fridays, gets there at 0628 on Saturday. There's an overnight return, departs 2215 Saturday arrives 0716 Sunday
(there's also a day service- I'd guess the outbound Friday night service returns as the Saturday service and the Saturday outbound day service returns as the Saturday night service)

 

[kylemore]

If it takes off fit a couple of cars with airline style sleeper seats - at a premium of course. If people are happy to make the best of it in the sky why not on the rails if the advantages and the price is right.

 

[jon0844]

I think that airline-style long-haul first class seating (reclining, perhaps totally flat, with some privacy added in) is a perfectly good option and more cost effective than cabins.

People will pay £5-6k to go Virgin Upper Class for that, so it has to be fine for a train where it could be the seating for first class, an intermediate 'premium' service with normal reclining seats for standard.

Far more people on the train, so much more cost effective. Easier to get up and walk about than a flight (no turbulence, take off or landing), likely to be able use your mobile and Wi-Fi without paying a stupidly high premium, plus more space in general.

Sure, after 8-10 hours you've not gone anywhere near as far as you would on a plane for the same time, but it's as much about comfort and other benefits. I feel liberated on a train compared to the hassles of flying. I fly because often that's the only viable option, but there are trips (especially leisure) where I'd seek to use a train if it was easy and didn't cost a fortune - as, sadly, many European trips do compared to a plane.

 

[starrymarkb]

Sleeper services will definitely be the answer to taking the train to European destinations. Better use of the tunnel and rail network too, perhaps?

Even 10 or 11 hours to Barcelona will be nothing if you set off from St Pancras in the evening and arrive in the morning.. having saved a stupidly early/extra late trip (most likely with an extra night stay in a hotel) to an airport.

Remember that those trying to sleep in economy are doing so because they have no choice without paying £1000s for a business class bed. Also remember that things will get very unpleasant if you have to spend 11 hours with a child screaming as if it's being badly murdered with an axe*.

How will a sleeper compete with flights from the Regional Airports? Easyjet fly to Barcelona's Main Airport from Bristol, Newcastle and Liverpool. Veuling do Southampton, Edinburgh and Cardiff, Flybe from Exeter, Jet2 fly from Glasgow, Leeds Bradford and Manchester. Ryanair fly from Birmingham, East Midlands, Edinburgh, Prestwick, Leeds and Liverpool (plus to 'Barcelona' Girona from other cities). Why spend several hours travelling to St Pancras for the overnight train when you can be in Barcelona by air in the time it takes to get to St Pancras.

If you use St Pancras as the start point you have Heathrow, Gatwick, Stansted and City in easy reach with no need for an overnight stop.

While I suspect there will be a few people who'd rather spend the night trying to sleep on the train but it would be a limited market unless you can dramatically undercut the airlines. Given airfares start at about £80 return including a Suitcase you'd not have much scope for trying to undercut.

To be honest the only way you'd see long haul services to the continent is if the UK joined Schengen and so the train is usable between intermediate points both in the UK and on the Continent.


*if it was being murdered well with an axe then it would fall silent after a few seconds.... - Quote from Aurileo Voltaire after he ended up next to said kid on a overnight flight from the States

 

[Greenback]

How will a sleeper compete with flights from the Regional Airports? Easyjet fly to Barcelona's Main Airport from Bristol, Newcastle and Liverpool. Veuling do Southampton, Edinburgh and Cardiff, Flybe from Exeter, Jet2 fly from Glasgow, Leeds Bradford and Manchester. Ryanair fly from Birmingham, East Midlands, Edinburgh, Prestwick, Leeds and Liverpool (plus to 'Barcelona' Girona from other cities). Why spend several hours travelling to St Pancras for the overnight train when you can be in Barcelona by air in the time it takes to get to St Pancras.

It's not just the flight times, but the times of the flight that need to be taken into consideration, and these ar enot always suitable!

For example, if we want to fly to somewhere in Europe 9not necessarily Barcelona) we might have a choice of a very early flight with a night in an airport hotel, or an evening flight where we can't get to the airport in time after a day at work.

Our choice, realistically, is to go to the airport and stay overnight, leaving early the next morning, or effectively lose a day and go the following evening.

I would much prefer being able to travel overnight, avoiding the need for a hotel and an early start in order to arrive at my destination by 1000. That is my personal preference, and I'm sure not everyone will agree.

I wonder if there are sufficient numbers like myself and jonmorris0844 to make it viable. And I wonder if the economics might change in the next decade!

If you use St Pancras as the start point you have Heathrow, Gatwick, Stansted and City in easy reach with no need for an overnight stop.

To be honest the only way you'd see long haul services to the continent is if the UK joined Schengen and so the train is usable between intermediate points both in the UK and on the Continent.

I wish the UK would join Schengen so that we could have really useful international services just like other countries!

 

[ainsworth74]

And I wonder if the economics might change in the next decade!

My personal belief is that in about ten years the budget airline industry will either have ceased to exist or won't be quite so budget anymore. I flew from Manchester to Amsterdam back in June and the round trip cost was £60, I can very easily believe not to far in the future that the same trip could cost £120+ at which point taking the train might begin to look attractive. I've long held the belief that air travel between Western European countries will give way to High Speed rail once jet fuel starts to get expensive.

 

[jon0844]

You could even install first-class plane beds in standard on a train and probably fit enough on to make it economically viable.

Yes, screaming babies might be an issue, but there's always the option of a family coach (or family-free) coach to solve that. I use ear plugs on a plane when I want to sleep, so that's not a massive deal anyway.

Trains are bigger (longer) than planes, so have many advantages. A 2 hour flight from London to Barcelona is fine, but if I need to be there for 9 or 10am, that means flying at 6 or 7 am (and that has to account for landing and getting to the gate, collecting my bags, clearing passport control [which could, possibly, be done before leaving St Pancras] and getting into town from the airport). The first train from Hatfield goes about 4.15am, the next almost an hour later and it's unlikely I'll make it to check in and clear security.

So, I get a taxi (£30+) and have to hope it turns up on time, or book it stupidly early so I get no sleep at all, or go the night before and book a hotel. £100-£150 thank you very much, plus the cost of getting to the airport that I'd still have to pay.

Or I fly the night before, perhaps going straight from work. That's the best option, but if I finish at 6pm then I might not be able to fly until 9-9.30pm. That's an arrival of midnight local time or thereabouts. Now I need another taxi or hotel stay.

Frankly, to leave work at 6pm and be on a train on or before 11pm, that arrives around 9-10am in Barcelona central station, with my bags with me and no passport control to worry about - and the benefit of Wi-Fi and 3G/4G coverage for the trip - makes this option perfectly viable and only a totally stupid cost would make me consider the flight options instead.

Sure, I can accept some people live close to an airport or want to go to somewhere that's nearer the destination airport. Not everyone is near St Pancras.. I get all of that. I'm close to Luton, and not far from Heathrow or Stansted - and by train, Gatwick is easy to get to too. But St Pancras is also easiest of all, and most of the time I go abroad I am going to the city centre, NOT the airport.

 

[cle]

Eurostar are planning London to Geneva and Amsterdam. Lyon and Marseille were also mentioned.

If e320s were to be used from France, it would surely make more sense for this change to happen in Lille, rather than Gare du Nord! But it'ds a horrible idea - and wouldn't be competitive.

DB are planning trains to Amsterdam (via Rotterdam) and Frankfurt (via Cologne) - dividing in Brussels. They could also end up steal Brussels passengers, as Eurostar basically operate Brussels as their semi-fasts. This would probably be non-stop, or Lille only.

Unknown is whether Liege, Aachen, Antwerp and Schipol would be served by DB.

I would wager that Eurostar's Geneva services would/could also absorb the Disney train too.

 

[jopsuk]

It'll certainly be interesting to see what does happen with the e320s. As I've pointed out, Eurostar already run succesful targeted overnight services and have done for years. Pick the market carefully, and there's every chance of success.

 

[JoeGJ1984]

One also has to consider that there are a number of people who have a fear of flying, and as such would find it very difficult to go on holidays in the sun to places such as Barcelona, but may add to the numbers on any train service from St Pancras to Barcelona.

Given that the ferries to Spain run, this shows that people do not mind taking longer to get to Spain than flying, and a train is a lot faster that a ferry! Given all the hassle associated with flying, people may prefer to take a bit longer going by train and perhaps make the journey part of the holiday. (If you're going to Barcelona for, say 2 weeks, losing a bit of time by going by train isn't really a massive chunk out of the holiday time).

 

[Yew]

Given that the ferries to Spain run, this shows that people do not mind taking longer to get to Spain than flying, and a train is a lot faster that a ferry! Given all the hassle associated with flying, people may prefer to take a bit longer going by train and perhaps make the journey part of the holiday. (If you're going to Barcelona for, say 2 weeks, losing a bit of time by going by train isn't really a massive chunk out of the holiday time).

Or even a stop off on the way for a day out

 

[starrymarkb]

You could even install first-class plane beds in standard on a train and probably fit enough on to make it economically viable.

Yes, screaming babies might be an issue, but there's always the option of a family coach (or family-free) coach to solve that. I use ear plugs on a plane when I want to sleep, so that's not a massive deal anyway.

Trains are bigger (longer) than planes, so have many advantages. A 2 hour flight from London to Barcelona is fine, but if I need to be there for 9 or 10am, that means flying at 6 or 7 am (and that has to account for landing and getting to the gate, collecting my bags, clearing passport control [which could, possibly, be done before leaving St Pancras] and getting into town from the airport). The first train from Hatfield goes about 4.15am, the next almost an hour later and it's unlikely I'll make it to check in and clear security.

So, I get a taxi (£30+) and have to hope it turns up on time, or book it stupidly early so I get no sleep at all, or go the night before and book a hotel. £100-£150 thank you very much, plus the cost of getting to the airport that I'd still have to pay.

Or I fly the night before, perhaps going straight from work. That's the best option, but if I finish at 6pm then I might not be able to fly until 9-9.30pm. That's an arrival of midnight local time or thereabouts. Now I need another taxi or hotel stay.

Frankly, to leave work at 6pm and be on a train on or before 11pm, that arrives around 9-10am in Barcelona central station, with my bags with me and no passport control to worry about - and the benefit of Wi-Fi and 3G/4G coverage for the trip - makes this option perfectly viable and only a totally stupid cost would make me consider the flight options instead.

Sure, I can accept some people live close to an airport or want to go to somewhere that's nearer the destination airport. Not everyone is near St Pancras.. I get all of that. I'm close to Luton, and not far from Heathrow or Stansted - and by train, Gatwick is easy to get to too. But St Pancras is also easiest of all, and most of the time I go abroad I am going to the city centre, NOT the airport.

The point I'm making is a lot of people don't live near St Pancras so if you add in 3-4 hours to get to St Pancras the advantage shifts again. If you lived near Bristol, Birmingham or Manchester it would be easier to fly from the local airport 5-10 miles away then have a 3-4hour journey (and having been caught out by tight times when I booked through travel with Eurostar [making to to St P 3 mins before departure] I'm allowing a contingency) to London first.

As for the ferries. you'll find their holds full of Trucks and Freight rather then foot passengers (some sell as minicruises) and neither of the UK-Spain routes operates daily (same is true of aircraft and I suspect this sleeper)

 

[jon0844]

I realise that not all of the UK is close to St Pancras but a lot of places aren't far, given the connections in to Euston, St Pancras and King's Cross - and the fact that the population of London isn't insignificant.

The train market doesn't have to completely replace air, nor did I ever think it would. For one, I doubt there's that much capacity!

 

[Greenback]

I realise that not all of the UK is close to St Pancras but a lot of places aren't far, given the connections in to Euston, St Pancras and King's Cross - and the fact that the population of London isn't insignificant.

The train market doesn't have to completely replace air, nor did I ever think it would. For one, I doubt there's that much capacity!

I'm definitely with you on this one Jon. For me personally, the distance to a major regional airport means it's unlikely I'd be able to get to the airport in time for most evening flights if I finish work at my usual times. On top of that, there aren't a huge number of flight choices in the first place outside London and the other big cities like Birmingham or Manchester.

 

[northwichcat]

For example, if we want to fly to somewhere in Europe (not necessarily Barcelona) we might have a choice of a very early flight with a night in an airport hotel, or an evening flight where we can't get to the airport in time after a day at work.

Our choice, realistically, is to go to the airport and stay overnight, leaving early the next morning, or effectively lose a day and go the following evening.

I would much prefer being able to travel overnight, avoiding the need for a hotel and an early start in order to arrive at my destination by 1000. That is my personal preference, and I'm sure not everyone will agree.

I currently choose where to go on holiday based on the flight times and prices. At present there's a number of European destinations which I've not been to and interest me, so I can avoid the not very nice time flights by choosing a destination that has better flight times. However, as I visit more places this may prove less practical if I want to continue to see places which I haven't been to before.

Your personal preference is certainly what I preferred to do as a student but now I prefer to have a night's rest before I start doing any sight seeing.

On the other hand my brother hates flying and he did a coach holiday to the South of France/Andorra/Catalonia. I thought the idea of the journey time was horrendous and if I wanted to avoid flying I would have much preferred fast trains to a coach, even if it involved changes.

 

[Bald Rick]

Equally, with one sleeper a night or, at best, two day trains to Barcelona, there is limited flexibility on arrival / departure times by train.

And fares won't be cheap. Being fortunate enough to get free rail travel, including Europe, I only have to pay reservation fees on the TGV and the staff rate on Eurostar. And yet it is STILL cheaper by plane to Barcelona, and 6 hours quicker, with many more departure time options.

My two cents is that Eurostar will aim for destinations with substanital business flows within the 5 hour zone where the train can compete with air on journey time+hassle factor and get away with charging a premium. So Lyon, Geneva, Bordeaux (when the LGV SEA opens), Amsterdam and possibly Koln / Dusseldorf / Frankfurt. There might be the occasional special to the Med, but they would be one offs. (is there a plural of one off?)

However it all depends on the UK Border Agency being happy with arrangements, as there is a rumour that the DB plans for Koln have been delayed (again) for this reason.

 

[D365]

I realise that not all of the UK is close to St Pancras but a lot of places aren't far, given the connections in to Euston, St Pancras and King's Cross - and the fact that the population of London isn't insignificant.

The train market doesn't have to completely replace air, nor did I ever think it would. For one, I doubt there's that much capacity!

Most people won't been that keen on wheeling their luggage through the two station via Euston Road, even if only for a few minutes. May change in the future with the people moving proposals linked to HS2.

I am looking forward to competition on these routes though, especially between airlines and Eurostar/DB. I'm alright with flying but there's nothing to see up there, plus it's cramped and noisy in airports. Trains are more relaxing but slower. Coaches... no way. Can't stand them.