First TPE driver suffers suspected heart attack mid-journey

[Howardh]

Should train drivers be visible to the public from inside the train like bus drivers are to their passengers?

Used to be - until they pulled the blinds down! The trams I have been on in Manchester (and Blackpool) allow you to watch the driver. OK - it's a tad more difficult on a Pendolino!

If the unguarded train stops for ill-health, surely the signalman can contact either the train driver direct or the main office to contact the driver. If there's no response (assuming he hasn't left the cab) then assume the worst and call 999?

 

[Whistler40145]

Watching the Driver of a train is now impossible thanks to the bulkhead blocking visibility, IMHO this is better for the Driver's concentration.

 

[BestWestern]

Watching the Driver of a train is now impossible thanks to the bulkhead blocking visibility, IMHO this is better for the Driver's concentration.

When I drove buses one thing which I always took an instant dislike to was any vehicle where the punters were able to stare through the cab bulkhead and see everything you were doing. Very distracting indeed, nothing worse than constant beady eyes on you all the time. The same would apply to driving a train in my view, I certainly wouldn't be happy with it.

 

[507 001]

Though of course even in that scenario the likelihood is TPWS or AWS would still kick in before anything serious could occur.

TPWS, AWS and coming off the DSD will take care of 99% of eventualities, but that still leaves a 1% margin of things to go wrong.

Train could exceed the line speed or *blow through a level crossing that is still open to road traffic and of course (in the worst case scenario of say 2 minutes) the driver will not be able to respond to any out of course action.

*AWS will of course apply the brakes on approach to the protecting signal but that may not be enough to stop the train in time depending on its speed and the location of the crossing.

Very rare and very unlikely, and all elements have to be just right, but the potential is still there.

Yes but don't forget that just taking your foot off of the dsd pedal will put the brake in, so in theory you wouldn't need to wait till the train passed over a magnet at caution. I am of course assuming that somebody who has just had a heart attack would be incapable of keeping their foot down.

 

[Skimble19]

Having guards on trains;
The difference between a train and, say, a bus is that the train driver can't be seen by the public, so if he is in distress there's no-one to know. The guard would, I presume, be able to contact the driver (and vice versa) and arrange assistance. Whether a signalman who would know the train's stopped unexpectedly would know immediately the driver's in distress I wouldn't know, but even if the signalman immediately assumed a medical problem, the doors seem to take some battering down by the ambulance crew - that's if they could manage. Call out the fire brigade as well?

OK, it's happily a rare occurance, but it gives the train companies (and unions) an opportunity to review safety measures.

Why would an ambulance crew batter down the internal door? Surely it would be easier to open the external cab door?

 

[notadriver]

Compared to what happens if for example a coach driver collapses, the train is far far safer. The difference is a passenger could take the wheel and even drive the thing to a safe location if they had a PCV licence. I don't think guards can move trains if the driver is incapacitated as far as I know.

 

[Solent&Wessex]

No, deffinately not. No reason for it and I'm not sitting there with a load of punters watching my every move. Nothing to hide when in the cab but I'm not into people watching me. The are enough safe guards in place to prevent a driver collapsing causing a problem. And it's incredibly rare-that's why they are so careful in passing a driver fit at the medical every 5 years and every year when you get older.

Oh for the days of the conventional DMUs, with their glass partitions allowing everyone to see forward and what the driver was doing. Even the 14x pacer units, when new, had see through cab doors so you could see forward. Can't see a problem with it myself.

 

[Skimble19]

Compared to what happens if for example a coach driver collapses, the train is far far safer. The difference is a passenger could take the wheel and even drive the thing to a safe location if they had a PCV licence. I don't think guards can move trains if the driver is incapacitated as far as I know.

I think perhaps officially you may be correct, but there's certainly plenty of reports that guards have taken the train to a safe place when incidents have occurred.

 

[GB]

but there's certainly plenty of reports that guards have taken the train to a safe place when incidents have occurred.

Is there??hock:

 

[ainsworth74]

but there's certainly plenty of reports that guards have taken the train to a safe place when incidents have occurred.

Are any of those recent though? I've also heard about guards driving trains onto a safer location or the next station but they've all been quite some time ago (and I'm not sure plenty would be accurate either).

 

[Whistler40145]

Are there emergency rules in place for a Guard to move a train to a safe location following the incapacitation of a Driver?

 

[A-driver]

Are there emergency rules in place for a Guard to move a train to a safe location following the incapacitation of a Driver?

No. And despite what people say on here any guard doing so would get into a lot of trouble for it.

 

[Whistler40145]

Thanks.

I don't work in the Rail Industry, so I just wanted to know what the situation was for such situations.

I therefore expect that if a train requires movement to another location following the incapacitation of the Driver then the necessary communication is made to source a fresh Driver to take the train forwards, either in service or as ECS?

 

[A-driver]

Yep-in an Instance like this one the on call driver manager or spare driver would be dropped at the train by another service or taxied to the nearest access point and walk to the train. The guard would never be permitted to drive it.

 

[Whistler40145]

Thanks.

The Guard is therefore there to look after the passengers & to ensure the train is protected?

 

[Cliveblackpool]

Watching the Driver of a train is now impossible thanks to the bulkhead blocking visibility, IMHO this is better for the Driver's concentration.

Many drivers did not mind passengers being able to see them, a few pulled down the blind behind them, but may have been more to do with reflections, than privacy.
I would imagine only if the train was in imminent danger, eg landslip etc would the guard risk moving a train a hundred yards or so. Not an enviable position to be in!

 

[Flamingo]

Regards the guard moving a train, I wouldn't know how!

 

[ukrob]

Yep-in an Instance like this one the on call driver manager or spare driver would be dropped at the train by another service or taxied to the nearest access point and walk to the train. The guard would never be permitted to drive it.

Is this black and white across the whole industry? What if the guard is a trained driver (thinking of some guards on Merseyrail here).

 

[A-driver]

Why would a guard be a trained driver? Only exception I know of is that London Underground guards were trained to drive in an emergency. Perhaps Mersey rail is the same?

 

[GB]

Is it not more the case that some drivers are passed out for guard duties on Merseyrail rather than a guard being passed out for minimal driving duties?

 

[notadriver]

In some companies drivers can do the safety critical part of a guards job (the doors and giving the ready to start signal) in emergencies (not a diagrammed job). They would however still get drivers pay for doing this.

 

[ukrob]

Is it not more the case that some drivers are passed out for guard duties on Merseyrail rather than a guard being passed out for minimal driving duties?

Yes, same difference but I phrased it badly. But I like the way someone who has stated already that they are not in the industry immediately dismissed it

 

[ukrob]

In some companies drivers can do the safety critical part of a guards job (the doors and giving the ready to start signal) in emergencies (not a diagrammed job). They would however still get drivers pay for doing this.

And in some companies, in this case Merseyrail, it IS a diagrammed job. So, my original question still stands (albeit it phrased badly).

 

[Whistler40145]

Thanks to you all for providing this important information, at least I now have some idea of who does what.

 

[notadriver]

And in some companies, in this case Merseyrail, it IS a diagrammed job. So, my original question still stands (albeit it phrased badly).

The only other company where this might happen is Eurostar where English train managers can drive the train out of the tunnel. A guard trained as a driver would in theory need to have passed a drivers medical and a full rules / traction test and have regular on going assessments of their driving. Maybe this occurs if they are waiting for a driving job to come up?

 

[Solent&Wessex]

On Island Line there are some staff who are both Drivers and Guards and perform both duties. I was chatting to a Guard who sold me the ticket last time I was there and he said he was dual qualified. Indeed the next day I saw him driving!

 

[Skimble19]

Are any of those recent though? I've also heard about guards driving trains onto a safer location or the next station but they've all been quite some time ago (and I'm not sure plenty would be accurate either).

Thinking about it most of them probably were a fair while ago. There was one mentioned on here fairly recently, but I can't remember when it apparently happened I'm afraid.

 

[Flywaver]

Whilst in Lithuania i had a drive on a shunting loco... I'm a Driver on XC. I was asked why we don't have two Drivers in case an incident like a Heart Attack happens.. Well i couldn't answer. Years ago i there were Secondmen....

 

[MattRobinson]

Is it not the case that the DSD means that a secondman is unnecessary? A secondman was basically a fireman who did all the jobs that a fireman did apart from tending the boiler? Now that we have multiple unit stock and generally fixed rakes of freight wagons (meaning no coupling up/shunting); electric train heating (meaning no tending to the steam heat boiler); signal post telephones/cab radio (meaning no walking miles to signalboxes); better AWS/TPWS (meaning that you don't need two people looking out for signals); etc, their job would be to make sure that the driver wasn't incapacitated for any reason, which isn't really much of a job...

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[jopsuk]

Watching the Driver of a train is now impossible thanks to the bulkhead blocking visibility, IMHO this is better for the Driver's concentration.

I'm led to belive most Japanese stock has windows in the bulkhead. The drivers supposedly have to point to acknowledge signals, and never know if management might be sat behind them watching.