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IEP: 26 metres is too long

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RAGNARØKR

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British trains are the narrowest standard gauge trains in Europe. This is probably because greedy nineteenth century landowners would only sell a strip of land of minimum width to build the railways on. After much cost and effort, it became possible to run vehicles 2.82 metres wide over the entire network, provided that they were no more than 20 metres long. This became the standard for the mark 1 stock. In the late 1960s it was considered desirable to run longer vehicles and it was realised that with a bit of tapering of ends and recessing of things like door handles, a 23 metre vehicle was possible, with an actual width of 2.74 metres, the same as the actual width of the mark 1 bodyshell. Some vehicles were, however, built to the full width of 2.82 metres, including all the 20 metre long suburban stock (classes 317, 455, 465 etc), and a few full-width vehicles were built to a 23 metre length for service on the former GW routes out of London (classes 165/166). These latter have a very limited route availability.

Since the mark 3 stock was introduced, gauge clearance work has been carried out which allow the vehicles to operate over much of the system. However, more recent 23 metre stock has generally been narrower, typically 2.7 or 2.6 metres.

Given the epidemic of obesity in the UK, one might have thought that those concerned with the specifying of rolling stock, now the Department for Transport, would have realised that optimising the width of new passenger trains would be a priority. Instead, they have specified even longer vehicles for the new IEP trains, 26 metres long, which will mean a further reduction in width and some very expensive infrastructure work on top. In a rational world, where people were considered important, the DfT would have specified a minimum width of around 2.8 metres. As it is, a couple of generations of rail passengers will be forced to travel in sardine-tin conditions. One also has to wonder what would happen if one had reserved a seat, only to find it impossible to use owing to the size of the passenger in the adjacent seat? What will happen when there are enough complaints and the situation becomes untenable?
 
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route:oxford

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RAGNARØKR;1222396 said:
British trains are the narrowest standard gauge trains in Europe. This is probably because greedy nineteenth century landowners would only sell a strip of land of minimum width to build the railways on. After much cost and effort, it became possible to run vehicles 2.82 metres wide over the entire network, provided that they were no more than 20 metres long. This became the standard for the mark 1 stock. In the late 1960s it was considered desirable to run longer vehicles and it was realised that with a bit of tapering of ends and recessing of things like door handles, a 23 metre vehicle was possible, with an actual width of 2.74 metres, the same as the actual width of the mark 1 bodyshell. Some vehicles were, however, built to the full width of 2.82 metres, including all the 20 metre long suburban stock (classes 317, 455, 465 etc), and a few full-width vehicles were built to a 23 metre length for service on the former GW routes out of London (classes 165/166). These latter have a very limited route availability.

Since the mark 3 stock was introduced, gauge clearance work has been carried out which allow the vehicles to operate over much of the system. However, more recent 23 metre stock has generally been narrower, typically 2.7 or 2.6 metres.

Given the epidemic of obesity in the UK, one might have thought that those concerned with the specifying of rolling stock, now the Department for Transport, would have realised that optimising the width of new passenger trains would be a priority. Instead, they have specified even longer vehicles for the new IEP trains, 26 metres long, which will mean a further reduction in width and some very expensive infrastructure work on top. In a rational world, where people were considered important, the DfT would have specified a minimum width of around 2.8 metres. As it is, a couple of generations of rail passengers will be forced to travel in sardine-tin conditions. One also has to wonder what would happen if one had reserved a seat, only to find it impossible to use owing to the size of the passenger in the adjacent seat? What will happen when there are enough complaints and the situation becomes untenable?

Fatties manages to squeeze their bottoms into the tiniest of seats in the West End - then sit there for 60-180 minutes depending on the performance. So I'm sure they'll manage to fit into a standard train seat.

Besides, there is an arm rest - bring it down firmly and tell them to tuck themselves in.
 

RAGNARØKR

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Fatties manages to squeeze their bottoms into the tiniest of seats in the West End - then sit there for 60-180 minutes depending on the performance. So I'm sure they'll manage to fit into a standard train seat.

Besides, there is an arm rest - bring it down firmly and tell them to tuck themselves in.
:lol: I dare anyone to try to squeeze themselves into the corner seat next to this customer
 

tbtc

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RAGNARØKR;1222396 said:
Given the epidemic of obesity in the UK, one might have thought that those concerned with the specifying of rolling stock, now the Department for Transport, would have realised that optimising the width of new passenger trains would be a priority. Instead, they have specified even longer vehicles for the new IEP trains, 26 metres long, which will mean a further reduction in width

Does anyone know whether these trains will be narrower than a Mk3?

Or is this just more IEP-bashing?

RAGNARØKR;1222396 said:
Some vehicles were, however, built to the full width of 2.82 metres, including all the 20 metre long suburban stock (classes 317, 455, 465 etc), and a few full-width vehicles were built to a 23 metre length for service on the former GW routes out of London (classes 165/166)

Many/most of these have 3+2 seating, which isn't ideal in an "obesity epidemic" either though.

Since some 166 duties (Oxford fasts) will be replaced by IEP, this should mean IEP has wider seats per passenger?
 

ukrob

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Does anyone know whether these trains will be narrower than a Mk3?

Or is this just more IEP-bashing?



Many/most of these have 3+2 seating, which isn't ideal in an "obesity epidemic" either though.

Since some 166 duties (Oxford fasts) will be replaced by IEP, this should mean IEP has wider seats per passenger?

Exactly. Give me 2+2 in a slightly more narrow train over 3+2 in a 2.82m train any day. OP has not thought through their argument properly (on many levels)
 

NSEFAN

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26 metre vehicles will be a problem for some locations, unless vehicles are made narrower. The first I can think of is Bristol Temple Meads.
 

Monty

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RAGNARØKR;1222396 said:
British trains are the narrowest standard gauge trains in Europe. This is probably because greedy nineteenth century landowners would only sell a strip of land of minimum width to build the railways on. After much cost and effort, it became possible to run vehicles 2.82 metres wide over the entire network, provided that they were no more than 20 metres long. This became the standard for the mark 1 stock. In the late 1960s it was considered desirable to run longer vehicles and it was realised that with a bit of tapering of ends and recessing of things like door handles, a 23 metre vehicle was possible, with an actual width of 2.74 metres, the same as the actual width of the mark 1 bodyshell. Some vehicles were, however, built to the full width of 2.82 metres, including all the 20 metre long suburban stock (classes 317, 455, 465 etc), and a few full-width vehicles were built to a 23 metre length for service on the former GW routes out of London (classes 165/166). These latter have a very limited route availability.

Since the mark 3 stock was introduced, gauge clearance work has been carried out which allow the vehicles to operate over much of the system. However, more recent 23 metre stock has generally been narrower, typically 2.7 or 2.6 metres.

Given the epidemic of obesity in the UK, one might have thought that those concerned with the specifying of rolling stock, now the Department for Transport, would have realised that optimising the width of new passenger trains would be a priority. Instead, they have specified even longer vehicles for the new IEP trains, 26 metres long, which will mean a further reduction in width and some very expensive infrastructure work on top. In a rational world, where people were considered important, the DfT would have specified a minimum width of around 2.8 metres. As it is, a couple of generations of rail passengers will be forced to travel in sardine-tin conditions. One also has to wonder what would happen if one had reserved a seat, only to find it impossible to use owing to the size of the passenger in the adjacent seat? What will happen when there are enough complaints and the situation becomes untenable?

Are you for real? :|
 

starrymarkb

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26 metre vehicles will be a problem for some locations, unless vehicles are made narrower. The first I can think of is Bristol Temple Meads.

IEP vehicles will be 25m with the coach ends pinched in a bit like a 323 (this is where the Toilets and equipment are being sited)
 

ainsworth74

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26 metre vehicles will be a problem for some locations, unless vehicles are made narrower. The first I can think of is Bristol Temple Meads.

I doubt it, we're spending millions on ensure that the things are properly cleared for the routes they're on. Basically we're replacing a 'go anywhere' train with one that can only go places if we spend millions on clearing it first! :roll:
 

IanXC

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I doubt it, we're spending millions on ensure that the things are properly cleared for the routes they're on. Basically we're replacing a 'go anywhere' train with one that can only go places if we spend millions on clearing it first! :roll:

Restrictive it will be to start with, but over the long term I think its a good investment. Brings us up to the internationally recognised optimum length which could reduce procurement costs and will reduce maintence costs per seat.

The move from 20m to 23m is generally seen to have been very sucessful, I have no reason to think 23m to 26m will be any different.
 

starrymarkb

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I doubt it, we're spending millions on ensure that the things are properly cleared for the routes they're on. Basically we're replacing a 'go anywhere' train with one that can only go places if we spend millions on clearing it first! :roll:

but once the work is done it allows future builds to use the extra clearances. Maybe wider 23m stock in future?
 

DXMachina

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Obesity is a personal responsibility issue anyway and not the railways problem. If people want to be able to get through doors, down aisles and into seats they should ensure that they can do so...
 

NSEFAN

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starrymarkb said:
but once the work is done it allows future builds to use the extra clearances. Maybe wider 23m stock in future?

I suppose if it "forces" future-proofing to take place then it's not such a bad thing.

It just seems a little far down on the priorities list right now. I'd rather the money went into train path capacity increases, rather than minor changes to the lengths of carriages. I might change my mind on this if someone can produce some numbers to show that 26 metres is significantly better than 23. ;)
 

Rick1984

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What's obsession with length?talgos are quite short but look like good trains.
 

route:oxford

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26 metre vehicles will be a problem for some locations, unless vehicles are made narrower. The first I can think of is Bristol Temple Meads.

We can't go on for another 50 years bowing to the badly built stations of another age - so sort out the root problem.

Bristol is shocking at the moment and needs a thorough rebuild. If my agile pensioner mother needs a random stranger to give her a bump-up to board a train - goodness knows what it must be like for the less able.
 

starrymarkb

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We can't go on for another 50 years bowing to the badly built stations of another age - so sort out the root problem.

Bristol is shocking at the moment and needs a thorough rebuild. If my agile pensioner mother needs a random stranger to give her a bump-up to board a train - goodness knows what it must be like for the less able.

if the money was available would it not be sensible to use the old sorting office and depot site to build some straighter platforms with travolator link to the original and highly protected listed station

http://goo.gl/maps/J9bxE
 
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RAGNARØKR

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Obesity is a personal responsibility issue anyway and not the railways problem. If people want to be able to get through doors, down aisles and into seats they should ensure that they can do so...
Yes but if you are unfortunate enough to have your reserved place half-occupied by a wide person and the rest of the train is full, someone will end up having to deal with any complaints and then it becomes the railway's problem.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---
What's obsession with length?talgos are quite short but look like good trains.
The longer the better. 26 metres is standard on the continent. But the British infrastructure means that the maximum width is 2.82 and then only for vehicles 20 metres long or less. If vehicles are longer, the width must be reduced by an amount which is proportional to the square of the distance between the bogies. Each successive additional metre is worse than the previous one.
 

tbtc

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RAGNARØKR;1222792 said:
Yes but if you are unfortunate enough to have your reserved place half-occupied by a wide person and the rest of the train is full, someone will end up having to deal with any complaints and then it becomes the railway's problem.

Do you know whether IEP coaches will be narrower (which is the central part of this thread)?

And if they are narrower then is a marginally thinner seat going to make that much difference when you are sitting next to someone who is as overweight as you suggest?

Is this just another excuse to bash IEP?
 

RAGNARØKR

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Does anyone know whether these trains will be narrower than a Mk3?

Or is this just more IEP-bashing?



Many/most of these have 3+2 seating, which isn't ideal in an "obesity epidemic" either though.

Since some 166 duties (Oxford fasts) will be replaced by IEP, this should mean IEP has wider seats per passenger?
Yes but they would have been even better if the vehicles had been a bit shorter, wouldn't they?
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---
Exactly. Give me 2+2 in a slightly more narrow train over 3+2 in a 2.82m train any day. OP has not thought through their argument properly (on many levels)
OP has thought it through very well. This is not a direct comparison.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---
Do you know whether IEP coaches will be narrower (which is the central part of this thread)?

And if they are narrower then is a marginally thinner seat going to make that much difference when you are sitting next to someone who is as overweight as you suggest?

Is this just another excuse to bash IEP?
The width difference between 2+2 in a 2.8 wide vehicle and in the IEP is not marginal.
 

Yew

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RAGNARØKR;1222798 said:
Yes but they would have been even better if the vehicles had been a bit shorter, wouldn't they?
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---
OP has thought it through very well. This is not a direct comparison.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---
The width difference between 2+2 in a 2.8 wide vehicle and in the IEP is not marginal.

Most 2.8m vehicles are fitted with 2+3 though..
 

tbtc

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RAGNARØKR;1222798 said:
The width difference between 2+2 in a 2.8 wide vehicle and in the IEP is not marginal.

So how much narrower will the trains be? Enough that it makes a difference when sat next to Eric Pickles?

Or is this guesswork?
 

Manchester77

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We can't go on for another 50 years bowing to the badly built stations of another age - so sort out the root problem.

Bristol is shocking at the moment and needs a thorough rebuild. If my agile pensioner mother needs a random stranger to give her a bump-up to board a train - goodness knows what it must be like for the less able.

apparently they are converting IKB's origanal train shed into extra platforms but i dont know when they're due to open
 

ukrob

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RAGNARØKR;1222792 said:
Yes but if you are unfortunate enough to have your reserved place half-occupied by a wide person and the rest of the train is full, someone will end up having to deal with any complaints and then it becomes the railway's problem.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---
The longer the better. 26 metres is standard on the continent. But the British infrastructure means that the maximum width is 2.82 and then only for vehicles 20 metres long or less. If vehicles are longer, the width must be reduced by an amount which is proportional to the square of the distance between the bogies. Each successive additional metre is worse than the previous one.

You know that Class 323s are 2.8m wide with carriages over 23m, right?
 

jopsuk

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It would be incerdibly expensive, and obviously won't happen, especially with the lines that are going to go IEP, but I have wondered about the practicalities of converting lines to (for example) GB or even GC+ loading guage (I think the main difference from GA to GC+ is height, with the + versions carrying height into the "corners" rather than being a rounded profile?)

Anyway, take, as an isolated line, the LTS line (run at the moment by c2c) from Fenchurch Street to Shoeburyness.
The first stage would be consider structures- bridges, tunnels etc.Even bridges over roads would have to be considered, as I'd guess the lines need to be a bit a further apart. Over a period of several years (with some fairly major closures) these could be (expensively) altered.
The stations would be a little trickier, but the platforms could be rebuilt, and then have a temporary higher surface, closer to the track, such as used at Stratford International this summer.
The new stock would need to be tested and fully run in elsewhere in Europe, at least for the first line. You would want all units to have accumulated significant fault free running kilometres. They then all need delivered to a new depot.
The bit where it could all go horribly wrong: In one closure period, remove all the temporary platform surfaces. The old stock (in this case, 357s) loses its ability to provide passenger services on that line with immediate effect. The stock gains clearance with immediate effect. At this point you hope that all the building work has been done very, very well and that the stock is genuinely good to go.

Harder to do on other routes. You might have to reduce "through trains" and increase, at least for a while, connections, with platforms at some stations for just the new stock and just the old stock- the old stock could enter the wide loading gauge platforms but wouldn't be able to open doors, but the wide/tall stock would be banned from entering old gauge platforms.

It would be possible. It would be highly expensive in the short term. In the long term, there would be savings because of being able to buy (and indeed, sell and export by rail) Euro-standard stock, rather than bespoke UK loading gauge stock. The time to make a return would be huge...
 

HSTEd

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Also it would increase capacity as you could order double deck commuter units instead of today's single deck ones.
 
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