Rail staff passes - not ATOC passes being used on other TOC's services

[Mattmatt]

Hi there;

Being a very new person to the railway world, (Conductor for Northern - still in training)

I have a question more so for X Country & London Midland Guards / Conductors; But would also like to know what other rail staff think too? Would you accept a Northern Rail staff pass on your train if the member of staff presented themselves to you on the station before getting on the train? thus enabling them (me) free onward travel? or would you sell them a priv ticket? or ask them for their ATOC card (Which I don't have yet)

I am after getting going from Manchester to Stratford U-Avon for as cheaply as i can in a couple of weeks.

Having asked other colleagues on the course; the info seems a little vague. I don't wish to chance it & risk loosing my priv's before I actually get them. But i also don't wish to pay full fare either. We've been asking the guard on a TPE service on daily basis to get from Man Pic to Bolton for the past 5 weeks; this has always been welcomed with a yes no worries - but it's only for a couple of stops.

I am fully aware of the unofficial 'Gentleman's agreement' where you would let someone from another TOC on your service if they came to ask you - but for a long (ish) journey like the one i'm planning; does it seem like i'm taking the **** and expecting a freebie from the guard. if you know what I mean.

does anyone have any thoughts?

 

[trentside]

We had something of a debate about this a few weeks ago, stemming from a different query on dating PRIV boxes;
http://www.railforums.co.uk/showthread.php?t=70681

I think the general consensus is ask first, don't just jump on and assume.

 

[455driver]

Why not buy advanced tickets beforehand?

If you chance it then you may be okay but if its a busy service then it could be a no.
You have answered your own question really, a few stops to and from work in uniform is one thing but going a long distance with the family is another.

If you catch a DOO service who are you going to ask?
The RPIs will probably treat you just like anyone else without a ticket.
If there is a guard on board then by all means ask but if its a no then you will havr to pay full price, how long before you get your priv card?

Oh expect lots of "why should rail workers travel for nothing when my 90 year old granny has to pay" replies, some people cant leave this subject alone.

 

[Mattmatt]

Why not buy advanced tickets beforehand?

If you chance it then you may be okay but if its a busy service then it could be a no.
You have answered your own question really, a few stops to and from work in uniform is one thing but going a long distance with the family is another.

If you catch a DOO service who are you going to ask?
The RPIs will probably treat you just like anyone else without a ticket.
If there is a guard on board then by all means ask but if its a no then you will havr to pay full price, how long before you get your priv card?

Oh expect lots of "why should rail workers travel for nothing when my 90 year old granny has to pay" replies, some people cant leave this subject alone.

I would never assume a freebie (as that would be wrong); and I would always be willing to pay the discounted price if I had to. I am travelling on my own to said destination. I am skint as im on the training wage - after being unemployed for 8 months

I am told we will get our Priv card after 3 months of employment.

Trouble with purchasing advance ticket is that the variables of the train I will end up catching are too wide - i.e.. if i finish work early I want to get away asap; & not wait for ages, or if I'm delayed in work and miss the booked service; then im stuffed - if you get what mean.

I don't have 'boxes'; just my Staff Priv card - not the ATOC Priv card. Are there any Guards that could also add to the debate.

All answers & debate are valid......

 

[158801]

My train...

Option 1) - You ask if you can travel and I thank you for asking, welcome you on-board and request that you don't occupy a seat required by a fare paying passenger

Option 2) - You don't ask. The train is quiet or you are stood - I charge you a PRIV

Option 3) - You don't ask. The train is busy, people are standing and you have helped yourself to a seat. I charge you full anytime public fare

 

[calc7]

If you have a bit of spare time you could get a Northern service to Crewe or Stoke to take the edge off, and perhaps split into Off-Peak Day Returns from there to Stratford.

 

[steamybrian]

In my opinion as retired BR staff (holding a ATOC free boxes card) I always offer to fill in my boxes for free boxes or buy privilege rate tickets and accordingly I am travelling legal.
There have been times where staff have not bothered to collect fares or allowed me through free of charge but it is at their generous discretion. In any dispute and accordance with the law I can safely state that I have offered to pay my fare.
Conversely friends of mine have had arguments with ticket inspectors on dubious cases where the ticket inspector has gone precisely by the rule.
Unfortunately there are some staff who are not so compassionate and it just needs one to report you for travel irregularities and your career is in tatters.
The morale of the story is too ensure you have a valid ticket or pass with you and anything extra is a bonus.

 

[cookiescrumble]

I am told we will get our Priv card after 3 months of employment.

Sure it's 3 months? I got mine after a months service and thought this was the norm.

I've never traveled with XC or LM but other Guards I have come across have never had a problem with me traveling on my staff pass for a different TOC.

Thats a fair old journey you want to make though...

 

[hairyhandedfool]

I thought it was six months, but I do seem to recall receiving mine fairly quickly.

 

[barrykas]

Generally it tends to be the case that you get your own TOC's pass at induction, TOCNE (PRIV) card after a month, and then after a year you can apply for European facilities (FIP Card and free travel coupons).

 

[ANorthernGuard]

Hi there;

Being a very new person to the railway world, (Conductor for Northern - still in training)

I have a question more so for X Country & London Midland Guards / Conductors; But would also like to know what other rail staff think too? Would you accept a Northern Rail staff pass on your train if the member of staff presented themselves to you on the station before getting on the train? thus enabling them (me) free onward travel? or would you sell them a priv ticket? or ask them for their ATOC card (Which I don't have yet)

I am after getting going from Manchester to Stratford U-Avon for as cheaply as i can in a couple of weeks.

Having asked other colleagues on the course; the info seems a little vague. I don't wish to chance it & risk loosing my priv's before I actually get them. But i also don't wish to pay full fare either. We've been asking the guard on a TPE service on daily basis to get from Man Pic to Bolton for the past 5 weeks; this has always been welcomed with a yes no worries - but it's only for a couple of stops.

I am fully aware of the unofficial 'Gentleman's agreement' where you would let someone from another TOC on your service if they came to ask you - but for a long (ish) journey like the one i'm planning; does it seem like i'm taking the **** and expecting a freebie from the guard. if you know what I mean.

does anyone have any thoughts?

NEVER assume always have the decency to ask and accept the decision (if its someone just being plain nasty or hypocritical there are other ways of getting your own back, which you will learn with experience) if they feel they are just doing their job grin say no problem and wait for the next one. even though we should all get free travel (and Northern are one of the few TOC's negotiating this) we don't so we just either have to pay Priv or hope the guard on the train you wish to travel on feels the same as the majority of rail staff.

 

[dk1]

Hi there;

Being a very new person to the railway world, (Conductor for Northern - still in training)

Good luck with the training mate. Don't forget us cheery guys & galls at Greater Anglia can now travel on your services on production of our passes. Same goes vice-versa & on Merseyrail

 

[Mattmatt]

Good luck with the training mate. Don't forget us cheery guys & galls at Greater Anglia can now travel on your services on production of our passes. Same goes vice-versa & on Merseyrail

I look forward to excepting your passes on our services!

 

[BestWestern]

I look forward to excepting your passes on our services!

Accepting them would probably be more appreciated lol!

Sorry, pedant hat now removed

 

[SussexMan]

All answers & debate are valid......

...(if its someone just being plain nasty or hypocritical there are other ways of getting your own back, which you will learn with experience)

I read that as "if a guard sticks to the rules then let's find a way to bully/intimidate them". Perhaps you would define "being plain nasty"? Do you mean, not letting you travel for free? If not, then please explain.

Perhaps you would explain more about your suggestions to "get your own back". What do you have in mind? Why do you feel the need to "get your own back"?

Good to know that the "we're all one staff team" is alive and well (provided you stick to our unofficial rules - else watch out). I wonder how many guards out there feel "caught" between applying the rules correctly but potentially enduring bullying and intimidation v going against their morals and not sticking to the rules?

 

[NLC1072]

My train...

Option 1) - You ask if you can travel and I thank you for asking, welcome you on-board and request that you don't occupy a seat required by a fare paying passenger

Option 2) - You don't ask. The train is quiet or you are stood - I charge you a PRIV

Option 3) - You don't ask. The train is busy, people are standing and you have helped yourself to a seat. I charge you full anytime public fare

Option three shouldn't exist, as a priv is generally seen as a permit to travel as the ticket vending machines will not issue tickets at the staff reduced rate, should people on railcard discounted tickets stand for passengers with normal rate/anytime full fare tickets?

 

[Urban Gateline]

Option three shouldn't exist, as a priv is generally seen as a permit to travel as the ticket vending machines will not issue tickets at the staff reduced rate, should people on railcard discounted tickets stand for passengers with normal rate/anytime full fare tickets?

I suppose it depends at which station one boards the train, as anywhere with an open ticket office, the option 3 would be just following the rule to the letter as facilities would have existed to buy a PRIV ticket before boarding!

As for standing, I think it is somewhere in the terms of the PRIV and most TOC staff passes, maybe not saying you "must" stand for fare paying passengers but encouraging it.

 

[ANorthernGuard]

I read that as "if a guard sticks to the rules then let's find a way to bully/intimidate them". Perhaps you would define "being plain nasty"? Do you mean, not letting you travel for free? If not, then please explain.

Perhaps you would explain more about your suggestions to "get your own back". What do you have in mind? Why do you feel the need to "get your own back"?

Good to know that the "we're all one staff team" is alive and well (provided you stick to our unofficial rules - else watch out). I wonder how many guards out there feel "caught" between applying the rules correctly but potentially enduring bullying and intimidation v going against their morals and not sticking to the rules?

did you actually read the entire post or did you just throw a wobbler :roll:

if its someone just being plain nasty or hypocritical there are other ways of getting your own back, which you will learn with experience) if they feel they are just doing their job grin say no problem and wait for the next one.

You really are an expert at attempting to twist stuff, luckily not many people share your attitude

 

[Monty]

Option three shouldn't exist, as a priv is generally seen as a permit to travel as the ticket vending machines will not issue tickets at the staff reduced rate, should people on railcard discounted tickets stand for passengers with normal rate/anytime full fare tickets?

Strictly speaking, the PRIV holder is only entitled to board the train if he is unable to purchase the discounted ticket he/she requires at the station. If he merely jumps on where he could have done this then yes he is only entitled to a standard day fare. Much worse if he was to come across a RPI potentially.

 

[ANorthernGuard]

I read that as "if a guard sticks to the rules then let's find a way to bully/intimidate them". Perhaps you would define "being plain nasty"? Do you mean, not letting you travel for free? If not, then please explain.

Perhaps you would explain more about your suggestions to "get your own back". What do you have in mind? Why do you feel the need to "get your own back"?

Good to know that the "we're all one staff team" is alive and well (provided you stick to our unofficial rules - else watch out). I wonder how many guards out there feel "caught" between applying the rules correctly but potentially enduring bullying and intimidation v going against their morals and not sticking to the rules?

Right just to answer a few of your points, simple

if he/she refuses then attempts to travel on your train without paying = Hypocritical (and it does happen) so then you either refuse or charge, hardly rocket science, what do you think we will do? meet the person down a blind alley and dish out some old school railway justice..really :roll:

The rest of your post, take some Valium and read the WHOLE post (as I have already mentioned)

 

[SussexMan]

Right just to answer a few of your points, simple

if he/she refuses then attempts to travel on your train without paying = Hypocritical (and it does happen) so then you either refuse or charge, hardly rocket science, what do you think we will do? meet the person down a blind alley and dish out some old school railway justice..really :roll:

The rest of your post, take some Valium and read the WHOLE post (as I have already mentioned)

If you meant that the person who was wanting to travel was being nasty/hypocritical then apologies but the ambiguity of your post meant that I read it as suggesting that the guard on the train might be nasty or hypocritical (by not letting you travel on the train for free) and then you, as the person wanting to travel, could find a way of getting your own back. So sorry if you meant that the person trying to travel was being nasty/hypocritical but that wasn't clear.

 

[ANorthernGuard]

If you meant that the person who was wanting to travel was being nasty/hypocritical then apologies but the ambiguity of your post meant that I read it as suggesting that the guard on the train might be nasty or hypocritical (by not letting you travel on the train for free) and then you, as the person wanting to travel, could find a way of getting your own back. So sorry if you meant that the person trying to travel was being nasty/hypocritical but that wasn't clear.

The point I was trying to make was if the guard felt he was just doing his job then you grin and bear it BUT if you knew the person expects free travel or in the future asks for free travel then you treat them exactly the same as they treat you

anyways all sorted

 

[Central Trains]

Option three shouldn't exist, as a priv is generally seen as a permit to travel as the ticket vending machines will not issue tickets at the staff reduced rate, should people on railcard discounted tickets stand for passengers with normal rate/anytime full fare tickets?

Option 3 does not exist - ATOC clearly state this - You must always be sold a priv ticket. Why wouldnt you issue a priv rate ticket - I find that disgusting.

 

[Monty]

Option 3 does not exist - ATOC clearly state this - You must always be sold a priv ticket. Why wouldnt you issue a priv rate ticket - I find that disgusting.

Could you please tell me where?

ATOC's Conditions of issue and use make no mention of this and infact say you are subject to the NRCoC, ATOC Website.

i.e. You buy before you board unless the facilities are not available for the ticket you wish to purchase. We (staff) are still subject to Condition 2 of the NRCoC like any other farepaying passenger.

 

[Central Trains]

Could you please tell me where?

ATOC's Conditions of issue and use make no mention of this and infact say you are subject to the NRCoC, ATOC Website.

i.e. You buy before you board unless the facilities are not available for the ticket you wish to purchase. We (staff) still subject to Condition 2 of the NRCoC like any other farepaying passenger.

From what I heard an EMT Train Manager had an issue with Priv tickets being purchased on board and ATOC issued a brief regarding this matter. I cannot understand why anyone would have a problem issuing PRIV rate fares on board.

 

[steamybrian]

My train...


Option 3) - You don't ask. The train is busy, people are standing and you have helped yourself to a seat. I charge you full anytime public fare

...As retired BR staff you should not ask me to give up a seat...
Supported by ATOC Conditions of issue Section 1 item 8

If you instructed me to give up a seat when I had a ticket or requested to buy a ticket then YOU will be reported to your Commercial Manager.

 

[Monty]

From what I heard an EMT Train Manager had an issue with Priv tickets being purchased on board and ATOC issued a brief regarding this matter. I cannot understand why anyone would have a problem issuing PRIV rate fares on board.

I recall receiving a similiar brief from South West Trains not so long ago, but it was in reference buying on board when ticket offices were closed. As you are unable to purchase Priv tickets (understandably) from TVMs, however if the ticket office is open then you should be purchasing your Privs from there.

158801 is trying to explain though about staff who board before approaching him, sit themselves down on a packed train and expect a free ride. And in this instance he is at liberty to sell a SDS or SDR etc.

 

[yorkie]

From what I heard an EMT Train Manager had an issue with Priv tickets being purchased on board and ATOC issued a brief regarding this matter. I cannot understand why anyone would have a problem issuing PRIV rate fares on board.

It is true that an EMT Train Manager incorrectly refused PRIV tickets to a member of this forum who started his journey at a station where no facility to issue PRIV tickets was available. Unfortunately several forum members have witnessed some EMT Train Managers, ticket clerks and gateline assistants acting incorrectly by making up non-existing rules and refusing to acknowledge the actual rules.

When such unfortunate incidents occur, I urge the customer to report the matter to EMT and seek assurances that steps will be taken to ensure that such matters are not repeated. If they are repeated, please contact Passenger Focus, ATOC, your MP and if you work in the industry please use any internal channels available to you.