First TPE driver suffers suspected heart attack mid-journey

[Tomnick]

Firstly, and most importantly, best wishes to the Driver for a speedy recovery.

I agree with others that this isn't the place for a DOO debate. However...

The signaller will know that the DSD has been activated and can use the train's PA lines to seek assistance. The signaller will be in communication with Control etc

I'd much rather be communicate directly with someone on the train who I know can take charge of the situation and personally reassure the passengers. Without a Guard, and assuming that there is a passenger who can medically assist and responds to a PA announcement, how do they gain access to the driving cab, and how can they assist paramedics etc. in safely accessing the train when they arrive? Is there any way for an untrained member of the public to communicate back to the signaller?

Away from the suburban services where there's generally some form of (competent) assistance not far away, I struggle to see how the lack of a Guard could be anything other than a significant disadvantage in this sort of unfortunate situation.

 

[Solent&Wessex]

The signaller will know that the DSD has been activated and can use the train's PA lines to seek assistance. The signaller will be in communication with Control etc

And how on earth does the signaller know the DSD has been activated? And how does the signaller make a PA announcement on the train?

 

[GB]

I know the signaller knowing the DSD has activated is part of GSMR (he obviously doesn't know the reasons why tho), don't know if this particular unit/area is GSMR live yet. Signaller talking over the PA is also a part of both GSMR and CSR.

 

[83G/84D]

Here's hoping the driver makes a full recovery, sadly a passenger on Sunday's 1745 Par to Bristol TM steamex (34067 Tangmere) was not so lucky.

After experiencing breathing difficulties and being attended to by paramedic's at Exeter St David's they did not recover and passed away.

 

[tirphil]

I know the signaller knowing the DSD has activated is part of GSMR (he obviously doesn't know the reasons why tho), don't know if this particular unit/area is GSMR live yet. Signaller talking over the PA is also a part of both GSMR and CSR.

Despite The Cambrian being a GSM-R area signallers at Machynlleth cannot make PA announcements on the 158's on The Cambrian. However there is always at least one guard on all service trains. Guards are not required for some ECS moves though.

 

[68000]

And how on earth does the signaller know the DSD has been activated? And how does the signaller make a PA announcement on the train?

These are Group Standard requirements if the service is DOO(P). See GE/RT8080 sections 4.5.7, 4.5.8 & 4.5.9

 

[Solent&Wessex]

I know the signaller knowing the DSD has activated is part of GSMR (he obviously doesn't know the reasons why tho), don't know if this particular unit/area is GSMR live yet. Signaller talking over the PA is also a part of both GSMR and CSR.

These are Group Standard requirements if the service is DOO(P). See GE/RT8080 sections 4.5.7, 4.5.8 & 4.5.9

Ah.

TPE Does not operate DOO(P) trains.

TPE trains are not fitted with GSMR or CSR.

 

[Legzr1]

TPE trains are not fitted with GSMR .

Yet...

 

[Crossover]

An update was posted on the Scarborough Evening News site on Tuesday:

http://www.thescarboroughnews.co.uk...rt-attack-on-board-a-speeding-train-1-4960329

Witnesses speak of driver’s heart attack on board a speeding train

A Scarborough nurse who helped save the life of a train driver who suffered a heart attack at work has spoken about the incident.

Passengers were first aware that something was wrong when a First Transpennine Express service from Scarborough to Liverpool Lime Street was brought to a sudden halt near to Rillington Crossing.

The driver has since made a good recovery and was able to be released from Castle Hill hospital, in Hull, sooner than expected on Friday.

The incident was on Monday, September 17, and Hilary Upson, who works at St Catherine’s Hospice, was planning few days away when the conductor asked if any of the passengers had any medical training.

She said that there was not much space in the driver’s cab and the conductor helped them to lift him out. She added: “There was nothing on the train. I expected a defibrillator or oxygen. There was a first aid bag but it was standard stuff.”

And she said that she had been in that kind of off-duty situation before but never on a train. “I’ve got a duty to help out where possible and you weigh up each situation.”

The patient had to be airlifted from the scene by a helicopter from Yorkshire Air Ambulance and it was filmed for the BBC programme Helicopter Heroes. “It didn’t sink in what was happening,” she said.

She added that the fact four trained nurses were on board the train did contribute to saving the driver’s life. “It doesn’t bear thinking about what would’ve happened,” she said.

At the time of the incident the driver was praised because he managed to bring the vehicle safely to a standstill despite his situation.

After the emergency the service was taken to Malton where it was terminated. Passengers were transferred to another service for their onward journeys.

A number of passengers from Scarborough also contacted the paper including Faith Young who witnessed the incident.

She said that the train came to a sudden stop just after West Heslerton. She added: “At this stage, we were all unsure as to why it had stopped so abruptly. However, within seconds the conductor came down the carriage to the driver’s cab, which was at the front of our particular carriage.

“The driver appeared to be in some distress and the conductor asked if there was anyone with first aid or medical training on board. Luckily there were several volunteers who were probably nurses and they got to work straight away, making sure the driver was comfortable.”

Mrs Young said that it was clear an ambulance would not get to the train by road and it was decided to ask for the air ambulance. “Some paramedics arrived on foot, and the Yorkshire Air Ambulance arrived shortly after,” she said.

She added that The helicopter landed in a ploughed field next to the train. “The main thing was the driver was transferred safely to Hull and seems to making a good recovery.”

Jenny Whitelaw, a Scarborough student who was travelling to Liverpool, said that it was lucky there were four nurses on the train and the other three were travelling to Preston.

She added: “I was really worried at first, I didn’t know what was going to happen. It was really serious – I thought he was going to die. The nurses got everything under control”

The good news is that the driver has recovered enough to be discharged from hospital, and earlier than planned. Also well done to all guard and volunteers on board too

It seems like the rescue by air ambulance was filmed for the TV series Helicopter Heroes, so it may appear on the BBC sometime as well.

It also seems like a few of the comments on the article have picked up on there being no oxygen or defibrillator on board - probably not thinking of how many units would need kitting out and being almost guaranteed it would be in the wrong place (wrong end of the train perhaps) when actually needed :roll:
I know quite a few larger stations do have defibrillators on them.

 

[Dr.iver]

Would it surprise non railway people on here if I said drivers and other grades get no formal first aid training at all, personally I think its criminal, so I paid for myself to take a NHS run resuscitation course.
IMHO all drivers/ guards and platform staff should be trained

 

[SussexMan]

....She added: “There was nothing on the train. I expected a defibrillator or oxygen. There was a first aid bag but it was standard stuff.”

It also seems like a few of the comments on the article have picked up on there being no oxygen or defibrillator on board - probably not thinking of how many units would need kitting out and being almost guaranteed it would be in the wrong place (wrong end of the train perhaps) when actually needed :roll:
I know quite a few larger stations do have defibrillators on them.

I find it very strange that a nurse expects to find oxygen and defibrillators on every train! What on earth made her thing this would be the case?

 

[michael769]

I find it very strange that a nurse expects to find oxygen and defibrillators on every train! What on earth made her thing this would be the case?

That was my first thought too! Imagine what the neds would do if they got their hands on one.

 

[Howardh]

I find it very strange that a nurse expects to find oxygen and defibrillators on every train! What on earth made her thing this would be the case?

Look at it the other way...suppose this equipment HAD been on board but she didn't ask thinking there might not be!

If I were a medical person first at any incident I'd be asking what, if any equipment was nearby; even if it's almost an impossibility. If you don't ask, you don't know.

 

[158801]

If she thinks trains have them, what abouts buses ?

 

[BestWestern]

The above account, assuming it is a true representation of what occurred, suggests quite clearly that the provision of a Guard on this train very possibly saved the Driver's life. Had this been a DOO service, the train would have come to a grinding halt, and there it would have remained for a good few minutes if not longer, with the Driver slumped silently in his cab slowly slipping away. The chances of a member of the public battering down the cab door would be practically zero on a modern unit, as they are rather strong and not easily forced. By the time the Signaller had arranged some sort of investigative assistance it would very likely have been far too late for the poor chap. The quick actions of the Guard and the swift summoning of medically qualified passengers to render first aid have proved pivotal in this incident. Food for thought.

 

[Solent&Wessex]

The above account, assuming it is a true representation of what occurred, suggests quite clearly that the provision of a Guard on this train very possibly saved the Driver's life. Had this been a DOO service, the train would have come to a grinding halt, and there it would have remained for a good few minutes if not longer, with the Driver slumped silently in his cab slowly slipping away. The chances of a member of the public battering down the cab door would be practically zero on a modern unit, as they are rather strong and not easily forced. By the time the Signaller had arranged some sort of investigative assistance it would very likely have been far too late for the poor chap. The quick actions of the Guard and the swift summoning of medically qualified passengers to render first aid have proved pivotal in this incident. Food for thought.

Agreed.

Class 185 cab doors are extremely solid and are only unlocked from the saloon side by use of a T Key which then activates a button which needs to be pressed too.

There is only 1 train an hour along that line so it might have been some time till a train going the other way too.

 

[sbt]

On a related note, SWT sadly lost one of their more respected Guards' managers yesterday,|

He was one of my managers, aged just 42 and in good health we thought. A huge loss to Fratton depot and the company as a whole.:cry:

As a daily commuter on your 'patch' (my train is passing through Peterfield as I type this) can you please pass on the condolences of one of your items of self loading cargo. Despite occasional appearences some of us actually do see you as people and care about such things. 42 is far to young.

 

[SussexMan]

The above account, assuming it is a true representation of what occurred, suggests quite clearly that the provision of a Guard on this train very possibly saved the Driver's life. Had this been a DOO service, the train would have come to a grinding halt, and there it would have remained for a good few minutes if not longer, with the Driver slumped silently in his cab slowly slipping away. The chances of a member of the public battering down the cab door would be practically zero on a modern unit, as they are rather strong and not easily forced. By the time the Signaller had arranged some sort of investigative assistance it would very likely have been far too late for the poor chap. The quick actions of the Guard and the swift summoning of medically qualified passengers to render first aid have proved pivotal in this incident. Food for thought.

But if you are using this as a reason that all trains should have a guard then presumably all signal boxes and gate-boxes (those that are left) should also be double staffed, as well as freight trains and any other lone working on the railway should stop. I certainly prefer to be on a Southern train than an FCC train as it just feels much better to know there is a member of staff on the train who is "passenger facing" but I don't buy the view that we need them because the driver could become incapacitated. Lone working happens all the time and the economy would be in even more of a mess if no one was allowed to do any lone working.

 

[Skimble19]

You could equally apply it to cars, which are far more dangerous in situations like this. With a train, nothing is going to crash into it, it's not going to swerve off the rails etc. unlike a car, which could cause who knows how much damage.

 

[GB]

The conditions have to be just right but there is still an element of risk if the driver is incapacitated and the train is travelling at speed. Yes the DSD will get activated but a train travelling at 100mph+ can cover a lot of ground in 60 seconds, even more so if the driver slumps and knocks a control thereby resetting the DSD timer.

 

[BestWestern]

But if you are using this as a reason that all trains should have a guard then presumably all signal boxes and gate-boxes (those that are left) should also be double staffed, as well as freight trains and any other lone working on the railway should stop. I certainly prefer to be on a Southern train than an FCC train as it just feels much better to know there is a member of staff on the train who is "passenger facing" but I don't buy the view that we need them because the driver could become incapacitated. Lone working happens all the time and the economy would be in even more of a mess if no one was allowed to do any lone working.

That is of course a fair point; I wasn't necessarily suggesting this particular incident should be justification alone for Guards, there are lots of other reasons for that argument, but I felt it a noteworthy point. I would suggest thought that the anti 'lone working' argument is bolstered by presence of passengers on a train, who can and will turn a relatively risk-free circumstance into one where additional problems can arise, from self-evacuating etc.

 

[68000]

DSD activiated emergencies (like this one) are extremely rare

 

[ainsworth74]

The conditions have to be just right but there is still an element of risk if the driver is incapacitated and the train is travelling at speed. Yes the DSD will get activated but a train travelling at 100mph+ can cover a lot of ground in 60 seconds, even more so if the driver slumps and knocks a control thereby resetting the DSD timer.

Though of course even in that scenario the likelihood is TPWS or AWS would still kick in before anything serious could occur.

 

[notadriver]

The conditions have to be just right but there is still an element of risk if the driver is incapacitated and the train is travelling at speed. Yes the DSD will get activated but a train travelling at 100mph+ can cover a lot of ground in 60 seconds, even more so if the driver slumps and knocks a control thereby resetting the DSD timer.

Knocking a control does NOT reset the DSD timer once the alarm goes off.

 

[Crossover]

DSD activiated emergencies (like this one) are extremely rare

The DSD seemingly wasn't activated in this situation. The driver stopped the train himself
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

Knocking a control does NOT reset the DSD timer once the alarm goes off.

No, but it will reset the timer if the alarm isn't going off

 

[68000]

The DSD seemingly wasn't activated in this situation. The driver stopped the train himself

In which case, emergencies which need the DSD to be activated are even rarer

 

[GB]

Though of course even in that scenario the likelihood is TPWS or AWS would still kick in before anything serious could occur.

TPWS, AWS and coming off the DSD will take care of 99% of eventualities, but that still leaves a 1% margin of things to go wrong.

Train could exceed the line speed or *blow through a level crossing that is still open to road traffic and of course (in the worst case scenario of say 2 minutes) the driver will not be able to respond to any out of course action.

*AWS will of course apply the brakes on approach to the protecting signal but that may not be enough to stop the train in time depending on its speed and the location of the crossing.

Very rare and very unlikely, and all elements have to be just right, but the potential is still there.

 

[Howardh]

Having guards on trains;
The difference between a train and, say, a bus is that the train driver can't be seen by the public, so if he is in distress there's no-one to know. The guard would, I presume, be able to contact the driver (and vice versa) and arrange assistance. Whether a signalman who would know the train's stopped unexpectedly would know immediately the driver's in distress I wouldn't know, but even if the signalman immediately assumed a medical problem, the doors seem to take some battering down by the ambulance crew - that's if they could manage. Call out the fire brigade as well?

OK, it's happily a rare occurance, but it gives the train companies (and unions) an opportunity to review safety measures.

 

[notadriver]

Having guards on trains;
The difference between a train and, say, a bus is that the train driver can't be seen by the public, so if he is in distress there's no-one to know. The guard would, I presume, be able to contact the driver (and vice versa) and arrange assistance. Whether a signalman who would know the train's stopped unexpectedly would know immediately the driver's in distress I wouldn't know, but even if the signalman immediately assumed a medical problem, the doors seem to take some battering down by the ambulance crew - that's if they could manage. Call out the fire brigade as well?

OK, it's happily a rare occurance, but it gives the train companies (and unions) an opportunity to review safety measures.

Should train drivers be visible to the public from inside the train like bus drivers are to their passengers?

 

[A-driver]

Should train drivers be visible to the public from inside the train like bus drivers are to their passengers?

No, deffinately not. No reason for it and I'm not sitting there with a load of punters watching my every move. Nothing to hide when in the cab but I'm not into people watching me. The are enough safe guards in place to prevent a driver collapsing causing a problem. And it's incredibly rare-that's why they are so careful in passing a driver fit at the medical every 5 years and every year when you get older.