Are UK Trains Faster?

[overthewater]

I have been looking around, I have notice alot of non "HSR" over in the EU all ran about 100Kpm or 130 kpm, which relates to about 60 and 80mphs.

Yet our UK Intercitys can operate at 100mph which is 160Kpm and even 158 can do 140kpm, which seems alot faster than what I have read for other parts of the EU.

have I got this right and British trains are just faster? if so why?

 

[SS4]

Stranded trains generally go nowhere (else they'd not be stranded)

Stock can go as fast as it likes, line speed is just as important (perhaps staff could clarify which is moreso?). Your car may go 120mph but the road limits you to 70.

 

[ainsworth74]

There was a time in the late 80s/early 90s that BR ran more services timed at 100mph or over than anywhere else in Europe. Not sure if it's still true but I wouldn't be surprised if it was (or we're near the top of the list).

 

[Shimbleshanks]

Correct me if I'm wrong, but I think Finland holds the European (even world) record for train speed on a non-dedicated high speed line at 225kmph (140mph). Of course, there isn't the density of traffic that we have on the UK rail system.

 

[IanXC]

I think the root cause of this is that for many other EU countries who have been investing heavily in rail, their choice has been to build high speed lines.

As we've (other than HS1) not done this in the UK, investment has instead focused on increasing line speeds on existing routes.

 

[Oscar]

I would agree that line speeds on classic routes are generally higher in Great Britain than on the Continent.

 

[MidnightFlyer]

I also believe that Great Britain (I wouldn't say Northern Ireland here) also has the highest inter-city frequencies in Europe.

 

[rf_ioliver]

Correct me if I'm wrong, but I think Finland holds the European (even world) record for train speed on a non-dedicated high speed line at 225kmph (140mph). Of course, there isn't the density of traffic that we have on the UK rail system.

Not sure whether Finland holds that record - no recollection about that but I'll ask around.

VR does run Pendolino trains at 220km/h between Kerava and Lahti on Finland's "high speed line" which has been built with the 300km/h geometry but nothing runs about 220. Curiously VR runs 200km/h capable trains at 160km/h on 200km/h+ track to "differentiate" between InterCity and Pendolino services.

As for train frequency, lines tend to be busy but then most are single track with passing places. There IMHO is plenty of opportunity to expand the passenger services but I'm afraid that politics plays a big role here...

Ian

 

[WestCoast]

Line speeds on classic routes do tend to be higher in the UK. However, the systems in e.g. France and Spain are extremely different to those in Germany and Switzerland. The reasoning is population density and distribution. Most busy "corridors" in e.g. Germany have both a regional train and an IC/ICE serving them in their entirety. So much so that you can cross the country on regional trains - and those on a very tight budget are often seen doing so because they are considerably cheaper. Could you do Penzance to Thurso purely on regional services? Probably not.

I also believe that Great Britain (I wouldn't say Northern Ireland here) also has the highest inter-city frequencies in Europe.

Direct comparisons are hard, because what's an intercity corridor in one country, wouldn't be in another. Intercities in the e.g. Netherlands can run as frequently as every 10 minutes throughout the day, but the distances are much shorter and the volume of traffic is usually intense.

 

[Manchester77]

Correct me if I'm wrong, but I think Finland holds the European (even world) record for train speed on a non-dedicated high speed line at 225kmph (140mph). Of course, there isn't the density of traffic that we have on the UK rail system.

how about the 395s that run on the classic lines around kent? do they run at 140mph there or is it more convensional speeds??

 

[MidnightFlyer]

I believe they are limited to the 'classic' line speeds, e.g. 75mph or similar. The only 140mph running is on the dedicated new-build HS1 between St Pancras and Ashford / Ebbsfleet (if heading to Gravesend).

 

[D365]

Third rail can only take speeds of 100mph or so, as the heat loss from high current and various other electric factors limit this.

 

[ainsworth74]

how about the 395s that run on the classic lines around kent? do they run at 140mph there or is it more convensional speeds??

Seeing as the world record for third-rail is 110mph, that would be a no

 

[Manchester77]

I believe they are limited to the 'classic' line speeds, e.g. 75mph or similar. The only 140mph running is on the dedicated new-build HS1 between St Pancras and Ashford / Ebbsfleet (if heading to Gravesend).

Third rail can only take speeds of 100mph or so, as the heat loss from high current and various other electric factors limit this.

Seeing as the world record for third-rail is 110mph, that would be a no

thanks guys
i didnt realise that it was 3rd rail on those bits

 

[ainsworth74]

i didnt realise that it was 3rd rail on those bits

Ah. Well you might want to check out the map in this Network Rail document on page 19. It doesn't reflect current plans as it's from October 2009 but it still shows the current baseline of electrification.

 

[Mikey1984]

Ah. Well you might want to check out the map in this Network Rail document on page 19. It doesn't reflect current plans as it's from October 2009 but it still shows the current baseline of electrification.

Looking at that map I'm surprised just how little electrification there is

 

[ainsworth74]

Yup it's pretty terrible isn't it? Though this is what happens when the last major electrification scheme wrapped up about twenty-two years ago.

 

[gordonthemoron]

German railways also suffer from exteneded dwell times, so even high speed ICE services may not be that faster end to end than UK services. Intermediate sections may well be faster though, e.g. nuremburg-ingolstadt or Frankfurt Airport-Siegburg Bonn

 

[stanley T]

Looking at that map I'm surprised just how little electrification there is

A long saga, composed of a misplaced faith in the 50s and 60s in diesel locomotives, the UK Treasury (finance ministry) begrudging capital expenditure, and the fact that the first major overhead electrification, the West Coast main line, was massively late and over budget. A particular UK problem is the large number of bridges with inadequate clearance for 25kV wires, on top of a restrictive loading gauge, especially in the early days when clearances were set
excessively large and overcautious.

The fact that the UK developed the world's fastest diesel train was borne out of necessity, not choice.

 

[Eagle]

Could you do Penzance to Thurso purely on regional services?

Yep. Many ways. Here's one (admittedly probably not the simplest or easiest):

Penzance to Exeter on FGW Sprinter-operated stoppers, Exeter to London with SWT, FCC from London to Peterborough, then EMT to Doncaster via Lincoln, Northern stopper to Leeds, then on to Carlisle, Carlisle to Glasgow with Scotrail, and then Scotrail all the way to Thurso via Perth and Inverness.

 

[Oscar]

German railways also suffer from exteneded dwell times, so even high speed ICE services may not be that faster end to end than UK services. Intermediate sections may well be faster though, e.g. nuremburg-ingolstadt or Frankfurt Airport-Siegburg Bonn

Nürnberg Hbf - München Hbf takes a minimum of around an hour on a non-stop service and is around 170 km with a maximum speed of 300 km/h as far as Ingolstadt and 200 km/h after that. York - Peterborough is a comparable distance and takes a comparable time, yet the maximum speed does not exceed 201 km/h - 125 mph. gordonthemoron - do you have any idea why the German journey time is not less? The only reasons I can think of are slow speeds around the cities or dwells.

 

[Rick1984]

German high speed was very slow into the stations over normal track when I was there.

Also why is our loading gauge so small? Is it because we invented trains?

 

[Eagle]

Also why is our loading gauge so small? Is it because we invented trains?

Basically, yes. Severe lack of futureproofing in the first few decades of railway building (which happens to be the vast majority of the network).

 

[MCR247]

Same with the tube as well. When you are first to do something everyone else copies but just doesn't make the same mistakes. Oh well

 

[ainsworth74]

Severe lack of futureproofing in the first few decades of railway building (which happens to be the vast majority of the network).

And often a cost saving measure, especially when it comes to things like tunnels. They built tunnels basically as small (cheaply) as they could get away with.

 

[Eagle]

They built tunnels basically as small (cheaply) as they could get away with.

The Hastings line comes to mind here. Cowboy builders diddling the railway by not building them properly or safely.

(And as Penmanshiel tragically showed, it was reasonably widespread.)

 

[Goldfish62]

Basically, yes. Severe lack of futureproofing in the first few decades of railway building (which happens to be the vast majority of the network).

It's a real shame. It means we'll never be able to match levels of comfort and ambience experienced elsewhere in Europe.

 

[yorksrob]

The Hastings line comes to mind here. Cowboy builders diddling the railway by not building them properly or safely.

(And as Penmanshiel tragically showed, it was reasonably widespread.)

Was Penmanshiel Cowboy built or was it more a tragic combination of shifting geology and the tunnel lowering process ?

I only ask because when the South Eastern Railway investigated their botched tunnels, they found that they'd been built with only two or even one layer of brick lining. If that had been the case at Penmanshiel, I'm sure they'd have found out earlier.