Update on LM ticket office closures

[WatcherZero]

Application by London Midland to Government to close: Small Heath, Jewellery Quarter, Bescot Stadium, Duddeston and Adderley Park refused though they will have their opening hours shortened.

Closure of Witton, Lye, Wythall in Worcestershire and Cheddington in Buckinghamshire approved.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-19627116

London Midland ticket office closure plans overruled

Plans by London Midland to close ticket offices at five West Midlands railway stations have been overruled by Transport Minister Norman Baker.

Offices at Small Heath, Jewellery Quarter, Bescot Stadium, Duddeston and Adderley Park will remain open with reduced hours, London Midland said.

But office closures were approved at Witton, Lye, Wythall in Worcestershire and Cheddington in Buckinghamshire.

London Midland said less than half of tickets are bought across the counter.
Mr Baker said the changes reflected "the change in the way passengers are buying tickets, with more choosing to purchase their tickets online or at ticket vending machines".

He added several ticket offices would have their opening hours extended, while a number of other stations would have their office opening hours reduced.

'Save millions'

Mr Baker said: "There are currently many ticket offices open for very long hours, while selling very few tickets indeed.


"In an era where passengers are telling us that they need fares to come down and investment in services to rise, these sorts of costs simply cannot be justified."


He claimed these changes would "ultimately save millions of pounds".


(read more)

Not really much that wasnt expected though LM is saying they varied ticket offices by upto 15 minutes looking at the detailed list released later in the thread its quite a bit different with some that were after 11 now closing at 8 or on sundays etc...

 

[Tomonthetrain]

Centros spin

http://www.centro.org.uk/newsroom/PressReleases/PressRelease40937.aspx

 

[MidnightFlyer]

I'm amazed Adderley Park survived, but then again I haven't seen internal figures. When will the closures take place? Has it been confirmed yet?

 

[dooton]

Cradley Heath also seems to be closing short of its opening hours recently. Is this a staff shortage or are LM just being naughty?

 

[Rich McLean]

Cradley Heath also seems to be closing short of its opening hours recently. Is this a staff shortage or are LM just being naughty?

There is a chronic staff shortage at LM at the moment

 

[Greeby]

There are somewhere between 70 to 80 vacancies across LM booking offices that have piled up. For years now at most locations, it's been a case of: If you leave, you don't get replaced. That process has accelerated as those who can retire do so, or leave for other companies or go to other parts of the company (Revenue mostly).

 

[PHILIPE]

I suspect this could be aploy to close more by not filling vacancies.

 

[2Dogbox]

There is a chronic staff shortage at LM at the moment

I hear they have staff shortages in all jobs, booking offices, guards, drivers. A lot of people have left and morale is dreadful.

 

[island]

I'm amazed Adderley Park survived, but then again I haven't seen internal figures. When will the closures take place? Has it been confirmed yet?

Agreed, it's 1tph in each direction most of the day.

 

[BrummyBoy]

Well, looks like my local station will loose its staff (on the occassion it actualy is). Shame as the chap who worked there did a good job, and gave me good ticket advice in the past.

 

[RPM]

That will leave Cheddington with a TVM that only accepts cards. So if you board without a ticket because you want to pay by cash not card will you be spared prosecution? What happens to people who want Group Save? The TVM won't do that. The TVM also switches over to off peak at the wrong time so you can't get an off peak ticket for the first off peak train. Currently people use the ticket office to get round this problem (that LM claim is too expensive to rectify), but what will they do after that? Of course! Pay over the odds. Win-win for LM!

 

[John55]

I hear they have staff shortages in all jobs, booking offices, guards, drivers. A lot of people have left and morale is dreadful.

It is no surprise if morale is poor. It should not take 18 months to decide such a straightforward issue.

Whoever is responsible (and I suspect it is the DfT in large part) should not allow this kind of uncertainty to continue for so long as it is very unfair on the staff who may be made redundant or the company which will clearly not be able to decide on future employment levels until decisions are made.

When I was in a company suffering from contraction and redundancy there is essentially a 90 day period before certainty was established this 18 months is very poor.

 

[island]

That will leave Cheddington with a TVM that only accepts cards. So if you board without a ticket because you want to pay by cash not card will you be spared prosecution? What happens to people who want Group Save? The TVM won't do that. The TVM also switches over to off peak at the wrong time so you can't get an off peak ticket for the first off peak train. Currently people use the ticket office to get round this problem (that LM claim is too expensive to rectify), but what will they do after that? Of course! Pay over the odds. Win-win for LM!

When the full range of tickets is not offered, you are supposed to purchase a ticket allowing you to make part of your journey, part-exchanging it with the guard or at your destination for the desired ticket. I have had no problem doing this on a number of occasions on LM trains.

Guards are supposed to use their discretion when passengers joined a train without a ticket because the ticket machine was not accepting any valid payment method that the passenger had. The interpretation of this is a bit vague; it is unclear if a passenger who was intending to pay by cash is required to use a credit card that he's carrying to buy a ticket if the TVM's only accepting cards. It is somewhat more clear-cut with rail travel vouchers.

I don't suppose there's a PERTIS machine at Cheddington?

 

[Bald Rick]

That will leave Cheddington with a TVM that only accepts cards. So if you board without a ticket because you want to pay by cash not card will you be spared prosecution? What happens to people who want Group Save? The TVM won't do that. The TVM also switches over to off peak at the wrong time so you can't get an off peak ticket for the first off peak train. Currently people use the ticket office to get round this problem (that LM claim is too expensive to rectify), but what will they do after that? Of course! Pay over the odds. Win-win for LM!

Perhaps a new ticket machine? Although it is understandable why you wouldn't want cash lying around, there is a bit of history with railways and proper money in that part of the world.

 

[RPM]

When the full range of tickets is not offered, you are supposed to purchase a ticket allowing you to make part of your journey, part-exchanging it with the guard or at your destination for the desired ticket. I have had no problem doing this on a number of occasions on LM trains.

Guards are supposed to use their discretion when passengers joined a train without a ticket because the ticket machine was not accepting any valid payment method that the passenger had. The interpretation of this is a bit vague; it is unclear if a passenger who was intending to pay by cash is required to use a credit card that he's carrying to buy a ticket if the TVM's only accepting cards. It is somewhat more clear-cut with rail travel vouchers.

I don't suppose there's a PERTIS machine at Cheddington?

No PERTIS at Cheddington.

This seems to be the direction we are going in. Some obscure rule about buying an alternative ticket that is not clearly displayed at stations and draconian penalties for anyone who isn't in the know. Hardly the way to attract repeat business.

 

[CockneySparrow]

When the full range of tickets is not offered, you are supposed to purchase a ticket allowing you to make part of your journey, part-exchanging it with the guard or at your destination for the desired ticket. I have had no problem doing this on a number of occasions on LM trains.

Guards are supposed to use their discretion when passengers joined a train without a ticket because the ticket machine was not accepting any valid payment method that the passenger had. The interpretation of this is a bit vague; it is unclear if a passenger who was intending to pay by cash is required to use a credit card that he's carrying to buy a ticket if the TVM's only accepting cards. It is somewhat more clear-cut with rail travel vouchers.

I don't suppose there's a PERTIS machine at Cheddington?

If there is no option to pay cash at the machines you can pay on the train without penalty, not everyone is allowed a credit card and this would be considered in the passengers favour if it ever went to court

 

[SS4]

That's in addition to a number of stations having their opening hours reduced - LM have a list. Seems to be mainly centro stations who currently (or are meant to) staff from first train to last train.

http://www.londonmidland.com/about-us/latest-news/decision-on-ticket-office-opening-hours/

PDF

I'm ambivalent to be honest, I can see why LM want to reduce hours and may even need to yet I can't help feeling for those who are going to lose hours/jobs and it is reassuring to know there is a member of staff around although rarely needed.

 

[transmanche]

I'm ambivalent to be honest, I can see why LM want to reduce hours and may even need to yet I can't help feeling for those who are going to lose hours/jobs and it is reassuring to know there is a member of staff around although rarely needed.

Having staffed stations is part of the reason for London Overground's success - with all stations being staffed from start to end of service. This makes stations feel safer for passengers. Incidentally, even stations that don't have ticket offices (e.g. Crouch Hill) are staffed.

If Centro are that upset about stations being de-staffed, then maybe they should consider employing staff at those stations.

 

[Tomonthetrain]

It's going to be fun when I do my 0600hrs splits on a Saturday at Stourbridge Town. Odds they'll do a Northern and add Card only machines. I'd love to see the staff on the PPM take my cash (which I doubt will happen!!)

 

[313103]

Having staffed stations is part of the reason for London Overground's success - with all stations being staffed from start to end of service. This makes stations feel safer for passengers. Incidentally, even stations that don't have ticket offices (e.g. Crouch Hill) are staffed.

You have it the nail on the head, having staff at stations reduces and prevents cime and with that more passengers will travel. Even though we have some misgivings about what is going to happen to a lot of staff on LOROL now that the Olympics are over. We are nowhere near the state that London Midland staff find themselves in, it would appear that staff morale is lower then it ever was under Central / Silverlink Trains ownership and at Silverlink i thought morale couldnt get any lower at least that is one battle that London Midland has won.

Glad you highlighted Crouch Hill tis my local station.

If Centro are that upset about stations being de-staffed, then maybe they should consider employing staff at those stations.

That maybe a good idea, but i think we already have enough staff employed on the railway that are employed by {SUB} Contractors.

 

[John55]

You have it the nail on the head, having staff at stations reduces and prevents cime and with that more passengers will travel. Even though we have some misgivings about what is going to happen to a lot of staff on LOROL now that the Olympics are over. We are nowhere near the state that London Midland staff find themselves in, it would appear that staff morale is lower then it ever was under Central / Silverlink Trains ownership and at Silverlink i thought morale couldnt get any lower at least that is one battle that London Midland has won.

Glad you highlighted Crouch Hill tis my local station.

That maybe a good idea, but i think we already have enough staff employed on the railway that are employed by {SUB} Contractors.

I suppose the DLR is therefore a failure with the public as a result of the no manned stations policy?

London Overground is a success because of suppressed demand and complete revolution in service levels. I doubt if manned stations is significant. Oyster is far more important in changing peoples attitude to travel and mode change.

 

[Morden Via CHX]

No PERTIS at Cheddington.

This seems to be the direction we are going in. Some obscure rule about buying an alternative ticket that is not clearly displayed at stations and draconian penalties for anyone who isn't in the know. Hardly the way to attract repeat business.

Spot on. If you turn buying a ticket, something that should be so so simple to do, into an absolute nightmare then people aren't going to bother using the railways and drive instead.

 

[313103]

I suppose the DLR is therefore a failure with the public as a result of the no manned stations policy?

London Overground is a success because of suppressed demand and complete revolution in service levels. I doubt if manned stations is significant. Oyster is far more important in changing peoples attitude to travel and mode change.

No one said the DLR is a failure with the public, however those passengers who travelled during the Olympics saw a complete different DLR to the one DLR normally present. So to those passengers DLR lied to them and gave a false impression, by having staff at most of there stations.

Well perhaps if staff are not making the difference perhaps London Midland have got it right by closing the booking offices and getting rid of the staff!

Perhaps you should pass on your comments to the MD of LO and tell him that having staff at stations and conductors on trains as a complete waste of time. I am sure he would be happy to hear your views and who knows you get a thank you for saving the company over 450 posts within those two grades.

 

[island]

If there is no option to pay cash at the machines you can pay on the train without penalty, not everyone is allowed a credit card and this would be considered in the passengers favour if it ever went to court

I haven't been able to find an official rule saying that. While it is certainly common sense, not all things on the railway are sensible. Would you be able to provide a link to one?

I am not sure the rules permit that a passenger who has with him a card accepted by the railway and capable of making the transaction is allowed to not purchase a ticket before boarding using a card-only TVM because he wishes to choose to pay with cash.

 

[CockneySparrow]

I haven't been able to find an official rule saying that. While it is certainly common sense, not all things on the railway are sensible. Would you be able to provide a link to one?

I am not sure the rules permit that a passenger who has with him a card accepted by the railway and capable of making the transaction is allowed to not purchase a ticket before boarding using a card-only TVM because he wishes to choose to pay with cash.

I for one don't have a card that I can pay for anything with, the bank only give me a card that I can use at the ATM, it hasn't got Visa, Solo or Maestro written on it, I have been in trouble with the banks big time so I only have a basic account

 

[island]

I for one don't have a card that I can pay for anything with, the bank only give me a card that I can use at the ATM, it hasn't got Visa, Solo or Maestro written on it, I have been in trouble with the banks big time so I only have a basic account

That's fair enough, but my question related to a passenger who has with him a card accepted by the railway and capable of making the transaction.

[Aside: Lloyds TSB offers a basic account with a Visa debit card.]

 

[RPM]

I haven't been able to find an official rule saying that. While it is certainly common sense, not all things on the railway are sensible. Would you be able to provide a link to one?

I am not sure the rules permit that a passenger who has with him a card accepted by the railway and capable of making the transaction is allowed to not purchase a ticket before boarding using a card-only TVM because he wishes to choose to pay with cash.

OMG. Here we are discussing this on a specialist forum, populated by enthusiasts and industry insiders and yet we can't even come up with a clear consensus on what is allowed. The poor passenger stands no chance at all.

 

[John55]

No one said the DLR is a failure with the public, however those passengers who travelled during the Olympics saw a complete different DLR to the one DLR normally present. So to those passengers DLR lied to them and gave a false impression, by having staff at most of there stations.

Well perhaps if staff are not making the difference perhaps London Midland have got it right by closing the booking offices and getting rid of the staff!

Perhaps you should pass on your comments to the MD of LO and tell him that having staff at stations and conductors on trains as a complete waste of time. I am sure he would be happy to hear your views and who knows you get a thank you for saving the company over 450 posts within those two grades.

I was contrasting your assertion that station staff are important to the success of London Overground with the situation on the DLR which has no station staff at all at most stations. Ensuring passengers feel secure while at the station and travelling is not all about staff numbers but about how the railway is designed and run. All the campaigns run by the Evening Standard over the years about station safety after the murder of a passenger at Kensal Green (despite the actual crime taking place 500 yards from the station) never once mentioned the lack of staff on the DLR because that system is designed for unmanned operation.

Having ticket offices open is not always a good way of having passenger facing staff available at a station. Most ticket offices have cash in them so have to be rather well protected and therefore the staff are limited in their ability to deal with the public.

The Olympics situation is atypical and is not relevant to normal usage.

The changes to the various parts of the LO network over the last few years have seen the North London line and Gospel Oak - Barking line largely rebuilt, the stations modernised, the rolling stock replaced and service frequencies increased by 50% to 100% and a shopping centre the size of most major city centres opened right alongside Stratford.

The West London line has seen 2 new stations opened, a shopping centre the size of most city centres opened right alongside Shepherd's Bush and the services doubled with new trains.

The East London line has been taken over from LUL and completely rebuild, services extended at both ends and frequencies doubled on the core.

If after spending that much money and the shopping centres opening etc the railway wasn't a runaway success it would be pretty strange.

However I still think the most important reason for increased traffic on LO is the extension of Oyster to the Overground network. The ability to hop on and off different modes (ie Bus, train, Underground) for these non radial routes seamlessly with no fare penalty is crucial to the success of these lines (as is the ability of TfL to subsidise the consequent reduced revenue).

There are lots of benefits to having staff at stations who can readily interact with the passengers but I don't think it is as important as you think in attracting passengers to the railway especially an urban railway like LO.

 

[northwichcat]

If there is no option to pay cash at the machines you can pay on the train without penalty, not everyone is allowed a credit card and this would be considered in the passengers favour if it ever went to court

What's the score with PayPal's Mastercard (which uses funds from you PayPal account) being used to pay for train tickets? I know Visa Electron, Solo and similar have issues for people who have bank accounts that don't allow you to go overdrawn.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

I'm amazed Adderley Park survived, but then again I haven't seen internal figures. When will the closures take place? Has it been confirmed yet?

I think that's the thing. The McNulty review used out-of-date LENNON entry/exit data to decide which ticket offices could be closed. No figures about level of revenue taken or what proportion of tickets were purchased from the ticket office were considered in that review, which are important from a commercial view.

Hale railway station fell below McNulty's 250,000 threshold but with it being in an affluent area and some people buying tickets from there for journeys like Crewe to London, the amount of revenue taken would be an important consideration.

 

[ainsworth74]

That's fair enough, but my question related to a passenger who has with him a card accepted by the railway and capable of making the transaction.

How does the railway know that this is the case? Are Guards/RPIs now allowed to look inside people wallets to check that they don't have a card and are in fact allowed to use their card?