Dover - London (+HS) season ticket valid routes

[DY444]

I'm interested in all of the valid routes for a Dover - London (plus High Speed) season ticket.

I've drawn up a possible list (below) and I wondered if one of the ticket experts could kindly advise if all the routes in the list are valid (or if there are any I've missed).

The ones I have my doubts about are marked *.

Thanks

To St Pancras via
Ashford, HS1
Chatham, Ebbsfleet, HS1
*Paddock Wood, Strood, Ebbsfleet, HS1

To London SR via
Chatham, Swanley
Chatham, Dartford
Ashford, Maidstone East
*Paddock Wood, Strood, Dartford
Tonbridge, Orpington
Tonbridge, Bat & Ball
*Tonbridge, Redhill, East Croydon

 

[yorkie]

Permitted routes are defined in the Routeing Guide, available on the ATOC website.

In addition to through trains, and the shortest route (plus routes up to 3 miles longer) the following mapped routes are shown as permitted in the Routeing Guide:

Mapped Routes:
Dover Priory - LONDON GROUP:

• DV + LD
• DV + LR
• DV + NK
• DV + VC
• HS
• LK

 

[DY444]

Thank you.

I've looked at the routing guides before and can never make any sense of them whatsoever, hence the question.

 

[yorkie]

Well, the most complex part of the Routeing Guide can be determining appropriate Routeing Points (RPs). In this case, there is no need to do that as both origin & destination are RPs, so there is no need to do the fares check comparisons, and you can delve straight into the maps in this case

Are you struggling with the actual maps or was it just getting to that stage that was the difficulty?

Here's how to use the maps:-

Each code refers to a map. If a single code is indicated the route is via any
route on that map from the first routeing point to the final routeing point
without doubling back (passing through the same station twice on a single
journey).
Where a routeing specifies that a combination of Maps be used e.g)
ER+PN+BD, the route is via any route on that map from the first routeing
point to intercept point(s) for the next map without doubling back, then via
any route within that map without doubling back. This is repeated until the
final map is reached then via any route within that map until the final
routeing point is reached.
Example (e) - Darlington to Shrewsbury via permitted route ER+PN+BD. This
allows travel from Darlington to York via Map ER, York to Manchester via Map
PN and Manchester to Shrewsbury via Map BD.
ALL MAPS NEED TO BE CONSULTED IN SEQUENTIAL ORDER.

 

[JamesRowden]

I'm interested in all of the valid routes for a Dover - London (plus High Speed) season ticket.

I've drawn up a possible list (below) and I wondered if one of the ticket experts could kindly advise if all the routes in the list are valid (or if there are any I've missed).

The ones I have my doubts about are marked *.

Thanks

To St Pancras via
Ashford, HS1
Chatham, Ebbsfleet, HS1
*Paddock Wood, Strood, Ebbsfleet, HS1

To London SR via
Chatham, Swanley
Chatham, Dartford
Ashford, Maidstone East
*Paddock Wood, Strood, Dartford
Tonbridge, Orpington
Tonbridge, Bat & Ball
*Tonbridge, Redhill, East Croydon

You can just go to the National Rail Enquiries journey planner and insert:-

e.g.
From: Dover
To: London St Pancras
Via: Maidestone West

And see if there is a single ticket (of the same restrictions) that covers the route.

(in this case there is not)

To answer your enquiry:

Paddock Wood, Strood, Ebbsfleet, HS1 (Single not valid, although every part of the route is covered by routes that are valid and so a season ticket would be valid along this route)
Paddock Wood, Strood, Dartford (Valid)
Tonbridge, Redhill, East Croydon (Valid)

 

[MikeWh]

Paddock Wood, Strood, Ebbsfleet, HS1 (Single not allowed, although every part of the route is covered by routes that are allowed and so a season ticket would be valid along this route)
Paddock Wood, Strood, Dartford (Allowed)
Tonbridge, Redhill, East Croydon (Allowed)

I'm not sure I agree. The only map that allows use of the Medway Valley Line or Redhill from Dover is LK. That map is only valid on it's own and doesn't permit travel beyond either Maidstone or Redhill.

 

[JamesRowden]

I'm not sure I agree. The only map that allows use of the Medway Valley Line or Redhill from Dover is LK. That map is only valid on it's own and doesn't permit travel beyond either Maidstone or Redhill.

Are you then saying that National Rail Enquiries might be wrong?
(NRE's assesment of the journey is attached)

 

[soil]

Permitted routes are defined in the Routeing Guide, available on the ATOC website.

In addition to through trains, and the shortest route (plus routes up to 3 miles longer) the following mapped routes are shown as permitted in the Routeing Guide:

Mapped Routes:
Dover Priory - LONDON GROUP:

• DV + LD
• DV + LR
• DV + NK
• DV + VC
• HS
• LK

You missed one:

LK + SD + LB

This one permits Dover - Tonbridge - Redhill - London

 

[hluraven]

On a Dover to London Terminals + HS1 ticket, you are allowed to City Thameslink via the classic routes, and to St Pancras via HS1, but not to City Thameslink via HS1 and not to St Pancras via the classic routes.

This is confusing a lot of the less savvy passengers out there.

 

[button_boxer]

On a Dover to London Terminals + HS1 ticket, you are allowed to City Thameslink via the classic routes, and to St Pancras via HS1, but not to City Thameslink via HS1 and not to St Pancras via the classic routes.

This is confusing a lot of the less savvy passengers out there.

Presumably the more savvy ones buy Dover to Farringdon instead...

 

[DY444]

Are you struggling with the actual maps or was it just getting to that stage that was the difficulty?

It's the maps. My vague understanding is that when two maps are involved you look for nodes which appear on both to give you the transition points from one to the other. However when I do that I invariably end up with at least one route which sounds implausible to me so I assume I've got the wrong end of the stick.

Take the DV + VC example

My interpretation of that is as the two maps intercept in two places (ie Faversham et al and Ramsgate) then both are valid routes. However going from Dover to Ramsgate then on to Faversham doesn't sound to me like it should be valid even if it is.

Furthermore if I look at LK, that tends to suggest that one could go from Dover to Ramsgate and then to Ashford, which again doesn't sound like it ought to be valid.

 

[soil]

It's the maps. My vague understanding is that when two maps are involved you look for nodes which appear on both to give you the transition points from one to the other. However when I do that I invariably end up with at least one route which sounds implausible to me so I assume I've got the wrong end of the stick.

Take the DV + VC example

My interpretation of that is as the two maps intercept in two places (ie Faversham et al and Ramsgate) then both are valid routes. However going from Dover to Ramsgate then on to Faversham doesn't sound to me like it should be valid even if it is.

It doesn't matter what it sounds like. It's a mapped route, so Dover-Ramsgate-London is valid.

Furthermore if I look at LK, that tends to suggest that one could go from Dover to Ramsgate and then to Ashford, which again doesn't sound like it ought to be valid.

Again, it doesn't matter what it sounds like. Basically they let you use any Southeastern service to London. I guess they don't care.

A 7-day Dover-London Not HS season is £116, exactly the same price as Ramsgate-London, Sandwich-London, etc.

So there's no loophole/advantage.

 

[ainsworth74]

It doesn't matter what it sounds like. It's a mapped route, so Dover-Ramsgate-London is valid.

Though if it does sound implausible then it might be a wise idea to take printouts of the Routeing Guide to show to any staff that may question the validity.

 

[yorkie]

Some do look implausible, but are valid. Perhaps the most famous example is Middlesbrough - Carlisle, which is valid via Manchester.

However the crazy routes are often removed by the TOCs when they find out about them.

For example, Northern removed Newcastle - Carlisle being valid via Manchester around 2008.

In fact, even if a route looks reasonable, it does not stop unscrupulous TOCs removing them. For example, the East Coast set flow Newark - London is valid via Nottingham, which is perfectly sensible and reasonable. But EMT want to increase the Nottingham - London fares and do not want people buying cheaper Newark - London fares, so EMT have asked for the route to be removed. East Coast approved the changes! However the DfT still has to give their approval, but knowing what the DfT are like, they probably will! Passenger Focus are also supposed to be consulted, but I bet they can't stop it.

 

[DY444]

Thanks for all the information. I shall in future approach the maps with less trepidation.

I wondered the other day how many different ways there might be to use the ticket legitimiately. I thought my initial list was optimistic but it turns out to have been the opposite.