Xenophon PCDGS
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Will a new inquest now be instructed to take place in the light of events revealed today ?
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Hillsborough Enquiry
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Butts
Veteran Member
Perhaps there should be, to many people involved see their prime contribution as evading any reponsibility for the tragic events that unfolded.
An interesting one, this. Though the original inquest was flawed, notably by criminal manipulation of the evidence, it is (IMHO) unlikely that the verdict of "Accidental death" would be changed. Is there enough evidence that can now be corroborated to prove, for example, criminal negligence?
A question for the lawyers: would the inquest be held under current laws, or under the laws in force in 1989? I guess a whole bundle of safety laws have changed since then, many as a result of the event itself.
(Flying off at a tangent here, does the revelation about the behaviour of the South Yorkshire police here cast doubt on the view that police violence in the miners' strike was chiefly down to imports from the Met)
A question for the lawyers: would the inquest be held under current laws, or under the laws in force in 1989? I guess a whole bundle of safety laws have changed since then, many as a result of the event itself.
(Flying off at a tangent here, does the revelation about the behaviour of the South Yorkshire police here cast doubt on the view that police violence in the miners' strike was chiefly down to imports from the Met)
I think it's inevitable, given the flawed '15:15' cut off for evidence to the last one.
The sad thing is I don't think we'll ever get to the whole truth about that day - 20odd years is way too long, too much water has gone under the bridge. But I suspect there were many factors (as is so often the case) that contributed, it wasn't just the incompetence of Duckenfield.
deltic1989
Established Member
The original investigation into the disaster was flawed and full of cover ups. According to the new evidence if help had reached them sooner up to 41 people could have been saved, but because they did not receive the help they needed, they died.
I can't comment fully on the original investigation as I was only 1 month old at the time, my opinion is formulated from the limited information that mrs deltics father has passed on to me.
He was at Hillsborough at the time of the disaster and the scars of what he saw live with him to this day, even to the point that he couldn't fully enjoy my mrs's 18th birthday as it fell on the 20th anniversary of the disaster.
I do hope that there is another inquest into the disaster, for the benefit of the families of those that lost their lives and those who unfortunately had to witness those events so that they can finally find some measure of closure.
I can't comment fully on the original investigation as I was only 1 month old at the time, my opinion is formulated from the limited information that mrs deltics father has passed on to me.
He was at Hillsborough at the time of the disaster and the scars of what he saw live with him to this day, even to the point that he couldn't fully enjoy my mrs's 18th birthday as it fell on the 20th anniversary of the disaster.
I do hope that there is another inquest into the disaster, for the benefit of the families of those that lost their lives and those who unfortunately had to witness those events so that they can finally find some measure of closure.
mirodo
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In my opinion, any chance of a fair and open inquest has been scuppered by the statements made by David Cameron in the HoC yesterday.
Yes, a new inquest should be opened.
All the release of this report has done is vindicate the victims and all the Liverpool supporters. It does not provide justice - and an inquest is another step down that road.
I refuse to believe that 96 people can go out to a football match and die at a similar time in an "accident".....
All the release of this report has done is vindicate the victims and all the Liverpool supporters. It does not provide justice - and an inquest is another step down that road.
I refuse to believe that 96 people can go out to a football match and die at a similar time in an "accident".....
I think the thing about this that I find most shocking and unacceptable is that forty one people died who could have been saved. I find that fact totally unbelievable and unacceptable, more so even than the cover up that followed Hillsborough.
What do we gain to stand from having an enquiry on a sad matter which occurred so many years ago?
Times have changed and the police force havemade great leaps and along with huge improvements in stadium designs/ running matches.
I'd rather see the million of pounds be spent on something more worthwhile, like investing in child care services which would improve so many lives.
Times have changed and the police force havemade great leaps and along with huge improvements in stadium designs/ running matches.
I'd rather see the million of pounds be spent on something more worthwhile, like investing in child care services which would improve so many lives.
RichmondCommu
Established Member
I'm sorry but I beg to differ here although I recognise that you have the best intentions. The single worse thing is that 5,000 fans were allowed to surge into the already crowded central pens, taking so many innocent lives in the process.
Yesterday also highlighted the complete contempt that the authorities had for football fans in the 1980's. Football is now sadly out of reach for many of the working class but at least it’s safe. I'm a Derby County fan but I believe that every single football supporter should pay a visit to the shrine at Anfield. As a football supporter of 40 years, back in the 1980's it could have been any of us.
Butts
Veteran Member
I agree and it seems The Police, Ambulance Service and Council were all culpable in one way or another.
Those responsible for "the cover up" should be found and prosecuted.
Apologies, let me clarify my statement by saying that I was referring to the aftermath of the crush. Of course I agree that the worst element of the tragedy was that the crush was allowed to happen in the first place due to terrible management, but to me once that occurred the worst element is that people died who could have been saved.
RichmondCommu
Established Member
Sadly the medical staff were too busy trying to find evidence to blame the catastrophe on the supporters who had perished.
As a nation the very least we can do now is to ensure that justice is served on those individuals who allowed this disaster to happen, and of course those who attempted to cover up what happened. That is the very least that those 96 poor souls deserve. Having come so far we cannot fail them at the final hurdle.
On this point we're in 100% agreement.
RichmondCommu
Established Member
Oh absolutely Ainsworth, and as I said before I know that your previous comments had the best intentions
It can only be that the Police didn't comprehend what was going on until it was too late. Seconds count in situations like that, and in all the chaos, it's easy to see how those in charge lost situational awareness. So many what ifs - what if there hadn't been a rush to get in the ground, what if the kick off had been delayed, what if the stadium had been declared unfit and the game played at Villa Park or similar, what if the Police had realised sooner and dealt with the situation better, what if it wasn't Duckenfield on duty - a man out of his depth. On and on it goes - so many factors. I fully expect a new inquest, but I can only see either no change to the original outcome or a narrative verdict.
RichmondCommu
Established Member
I'm sorry but that is simply not good enough. My beloved wife is a serving police officer but South Yorkshire police not only failed to carry out their duty but then told blatant lies to protect themselves. To pass the blame on to others who were completely innocent is unforgiveable. And even worse to try and prove that the deceased were drunk / had criminal records in order to suggest that they almost deserved their fate. Now is the time for justice.
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Two seperate things there though - what happened in the lead up to the crush and during it was incompetence, compounded by a failure to comprehend the enormity of what was happening. I seem to recall one of the players (might even have been Hansen) telling the fans to get off the pitch, only to be told there are people dying in there. He was feet away and didn't realise the enormity of it all.
Then we come to the aftermath - the outrageous attempt to cover up the loss of control. By then, it was too late to bring back any of the 96 people who lost their lives needlessly, but it would've been far better to be up front about it there and then. Imagine if the cover up had resulted in a repeat?!
RichmondCommu
Established Member
Alan Hansen's job was to play for Liverpool FC, not to ensure crowd safety at a football game. That was the job of the police and they failed to do so. What is even worse is that they failed to learn from their previous experiences at Hillsborough. I agree that other organisations are equally culpable but justice must now be served.
DarloRich
Veteran Member
You are entitled to your opinion - I would simply say come back when you grow a brain. While you do that I suggest you read the interim report by Lord Taylor – he debunked the lies of the police at such an early stage yet nothing was done and the cover up was allowed to grow.
I would rather like to see the families have the truth about what happened to their loved ones recorded correctly having tested all of the available evidence.
The original inquest has now been proved to be fundamentally flawed by the revelation that perhaps half of the victims had a chance ( perhaps only small a chance but a chance nonetheless) of survival had they received prompt treatment. Do you not think that decision that all the victims were all dead by 15:15 is just ever so slightly wrong in light of what we now know?
To me, South Yorkshire Police failed in their duty of care towards the fans at the game, they compounded that action by, allegedly, negligently failing to provide suitable policing resources outside of the Leppings Lane Terrace, by then opening wide access gates to facilitate entrance to the ground by large numbers of people without ensuring adequate supervision was in place to direct fans away from the central pens to the flank pens that were less full, not closing the access gates to the central pen and for having an inappropriate command and control system which broke down. There was also a lack of liaison between the command and control functions of all emergency services which compounded difficulties in rendering aid to the victims. The removal of an experienced match commander and his replacement with a new officer before such a big game may also be a contributory factor. They compounded this potential negligence by entering into, what a the very least (and allegedly) borders on a conspiracy to pervert the course of justice by altering statements and blaming the dead and seeking to blacken their names with unfounded allegations of drunkenness or criminality. They further compounded this by allowing gross lies to be broadcast by the media in particular, but not limited to, the Sun Newspaper.
Compounding all of this was the fact that Sheffield Wednesday did not have up to date licensing documentation for the ground, for altering the design of the terrace without the appropriate certifying paperwork, the city council allowing this lack of documentation to occur, the FA for allocating the game to a less than satisfactory ground, to a ground where a similar situation was averted the year before, for expecting thousands of people to enter the ground through very few turnstiles and for allocating the larger club, Liverpool, the smaller “end”. The perimeter fencing in vogue at the time can also be seen as a contributory factor as it prevented those in difficulty from escaping the crush onto the field.
To my mind justice must now be served. However well intentioned someone made the decisions that led to this tragedy. That someone must be called to account for what they did (or did not do), the evidence (all of the evidence this time) must be tested in a court of law and the guilty punished.
No matter what we should not forget that 96 people, just like you and me, went to watch a football match, just like you and me do every week, and didn’t come home. That is wrong.
(I would draw your attention to the following web page: http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-merseyside-19577033 )
(I might also direct you to this article written by the excellent David Conn in the Gaurdian: http://www.guardian.co.uk/football/2012/sep/12/hillsborough-truth-about-causes-of-disaster )
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That perimeter fencing that used to be common place sends shivers down my spine when I think of what could/would have happened at the Bradford fire if that stadium had been similarly equipped. I think removing it from stadiums was probably one of the single biggest safety improvements made after Hillsborough, perhaps more so even than going over to all-seater stadiums. After all in the event of any emergency the safest place is nearly always going to be that big open space in the middle of the stadium.
Xenophon PCDGS
Veteran Member
This unhappy affair can be something to consider in the seating v. standing debates that surface from time to time. Had that section been an all-seater area, there surely would be no reason to admit large numbers of non-seat- ticket-holding supporters into such a section. Just an afterthought.
Agreed - but don't forget that those self-same perimeter fences had only been introduced a few years earlier as a response to the vogue for violence among (some) football fans. At the time it was introduced, the ground owners preferred solution was the all-seater stadium which, it was felt, would dampen the enthusiasm for thuggery - but the traditionalists moaned that that would destroy the atmosphere (as they still do today). The atmosphere among the various authorities was extremely jittery, because of the actions of the prats on the terraces. I am not seeking in any way to justify the actions so damningly described in the report, but it does answer the question as to why the invidious lies put about could so easily be believed.
We'll never have standing stadia again because of Hillsborough, and frankly I'm not sorry to see the back of them.
WelshBluebird
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Yet:
1 - Standing was not to blame for the incident. The police were. Simple as.
2 - Surely standing in all seating areas is still dangerous (probably more so).
3 - There are safe standing solutions which work fantastically in other countries.
4 - Even ignoring the safe standing areas that are possible, a few changes would have pretty much made terraces just as safe as all seating areas are (namely the removal of the perimeter fencing, the removal of the high fences that created the small pens within the terrace, the addition of more turnstiles and more exits and the addition of more space in the area just before the turnstiles).
Analysis of that quality will ensure the lessons are truly learnt:roll:
DarloRich
Veteran Member
@Oswyntail - it is, however, true to suggest the police were to blame.
Read the Taylor Report.
Read the Taylor Report.
Not solely to blame though. As much as the Police were culpable, other organisations seem to be escaping the attention their actions deserve. I'm beginning to get quite annoyed about that.
RichmondCommu
Established Member
I agree that they are not soley to blame but it's their initial error of judgement that caused 96 football fans to be killed. The police were only interested in crowd control and not crowd safety. And don't forget it's the police who tried to lay the blame at others, including the deceased. They have been able to walk free for the last 23 years while parents still continue to mourn the loss of their children.
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